Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[God's Truth]

I wonder if a person in his Church has to wait around until God "performs the miracle" of opening His eyes.

If your eyes are not opened, how much knowledge do you have?

Pastors cannot save people and open their eyes.

Even then, he must wonder "Am I just accepting a 'set of theological facts' or are the eyes of my heart being opened?"

God does not reveal things to us because we studied a set of theological facts. Jesus reveals the truth to those who believe and obey him.

That is the mistake of people, they finally get what their teacher is telling them and then they think ah ha, God just opened my eyes to His Truth.

How could they tell? Would they need to have some emotion to verify what is real?

Well, there is feeling to being saved.

I do not recall the Apostles telling people to wait and see what God would do in them. They always called on people to repent and believe right then and there.

That is a very good question, and I have been waiting a long time for someone to be ready to talk to me about that.

See, God tells the Jews to search for Him and they will find Him, Jesus tells us that too. However, during the laying of the foundation, when the first Gentiles were saved, they did not search for God, for the apostles came to them and said they could know be saved...that is in the fulfillment with the Old Testament prophecies...about God saving the Gentiles who DID NOT search for Him...He was found by people who did not search for Him. Many things happened during the laying of the foundation that do NOT happen anymore...i.e. speaking in tongues, for instance. However now, since the foundation has been laid, anyone and everyone who wants to be saved must search for God.

We search for God by finding Jesus' teachings. We find God by obeying Jesus' teachings. I can show you scriptures that prove that.

 

[meshak]

So you believe you have to study history to follow Jesus.

Is this it?

bump.

 

[God's Truth]

That is reiteration of God's Law. God COMMANDS all humanity to repent and place their faith in Him.

Failure to do so is universal . . . no man has the heart or will to believe God and repent of their sins, according to the Law. Romans 3:9-20

This is the first part of the Gospel message. All men are sinners and all fall short of the glory of God.

Only those who are regenerated by the grace and power of God, and gifted with faith and repentance, will manifest these fruits of obedience in their new lives.

There are multitudes sitting in churches who have never been born again by the Spirit of God, and who continue in their sins; hiding them in gross hypocrisy. Many, many counterfeit Christians who talk the talk and fake the walk.

God knows who are His, and all of them will prove to truly believe in Jesus Christ unto everlasting life. John 3:16

Regeneration happens when one is saved.

God does NOT regenerate people to make them believe and obey.

We CAN believe and obey God to get saved, for that is HOW WE get saved.

 

[meshak]

Ok, I will rephrase my question but I know you will not answer.

So you believe you need more than Jesus' word to follow Jesus?

This is for endorsers of studying the history of orthodoxy.

 

[God's Truth]

If you've ever lived any sort of life where you've gotten on your knees and prayed for God's direction, you have known the Calvinism in God- because you hope that He is in control.

That's specifically why I brought up the Lord's Prayer.

Just the things you say is not right...you said the Calvinism in God. Don't you know that is a wrong thing to say?

 

[God's Truth]

Numbers23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Respectively, that He does not repent.

God's will is illustrated only a couple of times in Scripture as bending to ours, and when you consider all the other times He goes by His own soreign will, you must conclude that when we pray- it is part of God's providence altogether. When He gives us an option, He has preordained the choice we will ultimately make.

God having to harden Pharaoh is proof that Calvinism is false.

If no one can believe and obey God until God making them believe and obey first---then why would Pharaoh need to be hardened for beginning to believe and obey?

 

[Crucible]

Just the things you say is not right...you said the Calvinism in God. Don't you know that is a wrong thing to say?

:doh:
If you want to twist my words up and make a false representation of them, go right on ahead :idunno:

Don't beat straw men lain:

 

[God's Truth]

St. Augustine is the author of Calvinism really- he was Calvin's theological rock, in a sense.

You don't find value in Augustine either?

Luther got some of his false beliefs from Augustine too.

Luther and Calvin were both educated Catholics who studied in school from Augustine.

 

[Crucible]

God having to harden Pharaoh is proof that Calvinism is false.

:chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

:doh:
If you want to twist my words up and make a false representation of them, go right on ahead :idunno:

Don't beat straw men lain:

Wow really? You are going to deny what you said and then blame me?

This is what you said:

If you've ever lived any sort of life where you've gotten on your knees and prayed for God's direction, you have known the Calvinism in God- because you hope that He is in control.

That's specifically why I brought up the Lord's Prayer.

 

[meshak]

It is cedar that Calvinists don't know how to follow Jesus. And it does not even come to their mind.

This is why I say they are corrupt.

They don't even know what the Christianity is all about.

 

[God's Truth]

:chuckle:

God also cut off and hardened the Jews he did not accept before Jesus came to earth because he only wanted the Jews He accepted to be saved through Jesus first.

So again, if God makes people to believe, then God would NOT have had to hardened Jews.

 

[Crucible]

Wow really? You are going to deny what you said and then blame me?

This is what you said:

:doh:

That is not what I meant, and anyone with reason could deduce that.

You're like the media going after Trump- you're all a well of nonsense lain:

 

[God's Truth]

So you believe in the doctrine that God damns billions to hell before they are born is an enlightenment to the multitudes and delivers people from spiritual darkness?

You believe God damns people who obey Him. So how do you think your God is better?

 

[God's Truth]

:doh:

That is not what I meant, and anyone with reason could deduce that.

You're like the media going after Trump- you're all a well of nonsense lain:

I am just pointing out what you said wrong.
Now you are falsely accusing me to be like false accusers when it is you.

 

[Shasta]

[Nang;4954486]That is reiteration of God's Law. God COMMANDS all humanity to repent and place their faith in Him.

Yes He does and when the Apostles preached people were told to repent and believe. I do not recall any of them telling an audience they were unable to repent or that the vast majority of them were arbitrarilypredestined to damnation. They always spoke as if the invitation was truly open to all hearers and that the benefits possible to anyone if only the conditions would be met.

To me the "appearance" of universality is real. Salvation WAS possible for all. To narrow the scope of the invitation you have to read into the text something it does not explicitly state.

Failure to do so is universal . . . no man has the heart or will to believe God and repent of their sins, according to the Law. Romans 3:9-20

This is not true. Many people repent, believe and are saved. At one point in Acts 3000 were saved in one day.

This is the first part of the Gospel message. All men are sinners and all fall short of the glory of God.

Only those who are regenerated by the grace and power of God, and gifted with faith and repentance, will manifest these fruits of obedience in their new lives.

In the Book of Acts a message about Christ and His work would be followed by the command to "repent and believe" The attached promise was "and you will be saved." This is, at least, a typical presentation of the gospel. It is worth noting that the Bible never tells people to wait for the "gift" of repentance. It simply tells them to repent.

There are multitudes sitting in churches who have never been born again by the Spirit of God, and who continue in their sins; hiding them in gross hypocrisy. Many, many counterfeit Christians who talk the talk and fake the walk.

I talk to many Christians who claim to be saved because they prayed the sinner's prayer, made a profession of faith and hold evangelical beliefs yet they are living in fornication. These false Christians hide behind teachings that purport to represent "free grace" but which really amount to antinomianism. Faith means more than believing the right doctrines. It also entails "obedience" which people seem to think is equivalent to "works of the law."

God knows who are His, and all of them will prove to truly believe in Jesus Christ unto everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[meshak]

I talk to many Christians who claim to be saved because they prayed the sinner's prayer, made a profession of faith and hold evangelical beliefs yet they are living in fornication or adultery. These are the counterfeits. Most often they hide behind teachings that purport to represent "free grace" but really amount to antinomianism. Faith means more than believing the right doctrines. It also entails "obedience" which people think means the "works of the law."

Indeed, most protestants believe this.

It sure is sad situation.

 

[clefty]

Indeed, most protestants believe this.

It sure is sad situation.

Sad?...cheer up..."The Way" to Life remains narrow...

and must be walked...not just believed in...but taken...

Many are called...few are chosen...

 

[God's Truth]

By the same logic, does it make me a Calvinite to say I agree with Calvin? I don't care if someone calls me a Marhigist or a Calvinist. I only care if it is Biblical. I'm not necessarily a Paulite or Paulist either, but I do follow Paul. Does any of this make sense?
Log-eye, remove it. -Lon

It is worldly to say you follow mere men.

 

[TulipBee]

1. You follow Charles Taze Russell. Whatever sense you are a JW, you are a Russellite. 2. Whatever sense I embrace a doctrine that coincides with another, I got there by reading my Bible.

At the end, it is more your lack of understanding than an actual, to ask. We don't really see you as Biblically literate on TOL. You aren't able to really engage in deeper conversations on TOL, because you are about as thin as JW doctrine.

All the posts meshak leaves is identical to Russell's beliefs. Same thing.