RCC still believes Peter assigned the first pope while he was alive.
Augustine was more right than others.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Augustine was more right than others.
Some disagreed with others. On big pool of confusion. Truth springs from the Bible alone. Sola scriptura is true. We don't need RCC
Shasta
Well-known member
The ECF went back to the time of the Apostles. Some of them knew the Apostles. They spoke Koine Greek and read the scriptures in the original language. Augustine was more philosophical. What is worse he had been a member of the Manichaean cult which believed mankind was so ruined that his actions had to be predestined by one of two cosmic forces. All the predeterminism came in because of Augustine and was not taught before him. In the 300 years of teaching before Augustine determinism was not only NOT taught it was considered a pagan concept.
Since Augustine spoke only Latin he was unaware of what the earlier Christians had believed. Based on his reading of corrupt Latin texts of the Bible, Augustine came to the conclusion that everyone is individually guilty of the sin of the personal sin Adam committed. This is why he believed in infant damnation and why he instituted the practice of infant baptism to remove "original sin." . The Church and priests were the only ones authorized to remove "original sin" in this way Augustine also used ecclesiastical power to suppress all dissenting views. How you can say Augustine was "more right," I do not know unless you had spent some time reading the ECF. Many were trained by the apostles. Others by students of the Apostles and others by their students. They do not agree on every small point but they all oppose determinism, strange if it had been a teaching from the beginning.
You can believe Peter was the pope if you want to. There is no evidence he was even there. At any rate it was ultimately the West that made Peter the first pope many centuries after he was gone. If you are concerned with the Catholic connection then you should remember that Augustine, Calvin's teacher is called "the father of the Catholic Church."
Shasta
Well-known member
I see you are stuck on the idea that the ECF = the RCC. This is simply not true. I do not take what the ECF wrote as canon but it is useful to find out what was taught early on. If it disagrees with what was taught much later then I think it is more likely that the later teaching was the mutation.
They got fame greedy, money greedy and love greedy with phony hearts
ECF are like a round Rock, watered down from the original rock. May look pretty and feel smooth but I'd rather hear from the organic word of God with sharp corners like a double edge sword that cuts the core of souls
If you believed in the Bible alone, then you would have to believe that Jesus is the savior of the world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.
Shasta
Well-known member
He could know by His foreknowledge.
Lon
Well-known member
For me, a term for all sinners without Christ. It is a difference of whether a goat can become a sheep and I concede from your view the need for the distinction. It makes sense. Imho, in a discussion with nonCalvinists, (and even some Calvinists as I) I'd make a point of spelling this out. In this case "Goat" does not equal "sinner." If it were me "Certain Calvinists like me make a stark distinction between "sinners" and "goats." They are not the same by definition but may both coincide to the same individuals being discussed, i.e. sinners who will never be saved." ....or something of the sort. Thanks for clarifiers to you and B57 of your position. I'm not sure I disagree. :up:
Shasta
Well-known member
The problem is that you have gathered "rocks" from the stream of Augustine who polluted it with ideas from Persian Gnosticism. John Calvin who knew very well that all the earlier ECF disagreed with Augustine was nevertheless loyal to his favorite mentor for no good reasons that I could tell. You claim you have the pure organic word but the ECF were more of an original source than Augustine. They lived much closer to the time of the Apostles. The earliest Church Fathers knew the Apostles. Later ones were students of the Apostles students (etc). Usually in researching historical opinions priority is given to more ancient sources since they more likely reflect original sources. In this light the most relevant question is why, if the early Church taught determinism was the opposite idea taught unanimously for the first 300 years?
Unlike you, I do not see that Calvinism necessarily cuts anyone to the core. How could it when the effect is to absolve them of moral responsibility. Men can only be held responsible for what they do if they are capable of resisting the action. A robot that has been programmed to kill cannot be prosecuted in any sane court just for following its program. A being cannot be deprived of its will and then be tried in court as if it had a will. This is precisely the argument of all the ECFs.
Had Augustine bothered to consult a decent Bible teacher across the Mediterranean, John Chysostom for instance, he might have seen how far off he was. Unlike Augustine, who spoke only Latin, Chrysostom's native language was the Koine Greek of the NT. He method of teaching the scriptures was exegetical and expository, verse by verse. Augustine used the allegorical method which allowed him to weave unrelated ideas into the text. Augustine's sloppy methodology and overbearing ecclesiastical power was, in large measure, responsible for the spread of his ideas in the Catholic Church. If you fear Catholicism as much as you seem to you should be not embrace Augustine's influence.
Do we need to read all that?
beloved57
Well-known member
You believe that freewill is the Saviour of the World. You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Moot point. Some are His Sheep before they hear and believe Jn 10:16
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Shasta
Well-known member
When Jesus taught about sheep He outlined certain identifying markers by which we could know who they were. Sheep, Jesus taught, have a characteristic way of thinking and behaving. The purpose of His teaching was to give us a criteria for deciding which people were true and false followers. Jesus said that His sheep (1) hear His voice, (2) recognize His voice and (3) respond to His voice by following Him. Thus before a person can be considered in the flock of the Lord Jesus there has to be understanding, recognition, relationship and submission. Others forms of life might look like sheep on the outside but they lack these qualities. For instance, He warned:
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).
Among these unhealthy diseased trees are many religious people who think they are doing God a service but are poisoning the flock. As for wolves, a person need not necessarily preach another religion to be a wolf. Many false prophets in Israel were teaching the right doctrine. They were just misrepresenting what God was telling the people in the moment.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16-17)
Going by what Jesus says what might we have assumed about Saul of Tarsus prior to his Damascus Road experience? We might have called him a diseased plant because he was badly infected with Phariseeism. We might have labelled him a thornbush because anyone trying to pluck fruit from his life would be hurt by his bitterness and rage. Jesus said a person's true nature is determined by their attitudes and behaviors. Saul hated the whole idea of Jesus being the Messiah and he expressed his rage by persecuting and slaughtering His followers. Killing and eating sheep is not what sheep do. It is the work of wolves.
Saying that a person’s metaphysical status as “elect” is what makes them a “sheep” overturns Jesus’ clear and simple teaching on this subject. It is equivalent to saying that a person can be a good tree that bears nothing but diseased fruit, or that they can be a fruitful plant that bears thorns, or that there is a very special kind of sheep that is carnivorous and preys on other sheep This is, of course, nonsense. “Knowing them by their fruits” means that we will be able to observe who they are and KNOW for certain whether they are true sheep or not.
A person’s future status as a believer or unbeliever is something only God knows through divine foreknowledge Unless He imparts some of that knowledge to us through prophecy we cannot possibly know it. However, God, through His divine foreknowledge is able to call people sheep before they have actually chosen to become sheep before they have developed the character of a sheep. He is able to say He already HAS other sheep in another sheep fold even though they have not yet believed or come. They are not yet sheep in time in space but merely prophetically and we who live in time and space should never confuse reality with a prophetic reference.
Knowing what people will do is not the same as predetermining their decisions. Foreknowledge preserves humanity's power to choose but allows God to use even rebellious people in His redemptive plan. Foreknowledge preempts the philosophical illogicalities and moral atrocities associated with determinism.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:15-20).
Among these unhealthy diseased trees are many religious people who think they are doing God a service but are poisoning the flock. As for wolves, a person need not necessarily preach another religion to be a wolf. Many false prophets in Israel were teaching the right doctrine. They were just misrepresenting what God was telling the people in the moment.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16-17)
Going by what Jesus says what might we have assumed about Saul of Tarsus prior to his Damascus Road experience? We might have called him a diseased plant because he was badly infected with Phariseeism. We might have labelled him a thornbush because anyone trying to pluck fruit from his life would be hurt by his bitterness and rage. Jesus said a person's true nature is determined by their attitudes and behaviors. Saul hated the whole idea of Jesus being the Messiah and he expressed his rage by persecuting and slaughtering His followers. Killing and eating sheep is not what sheep do. It is the work of wolves.
Saying that a person’s metaphysical status as “elect” is what makes them a “sheep” overturns Jesus’ clear and simple teaching on this subject. It is equivalent to saying that a person can be a good tree that bears nothing but diseased fruit, or that they can be a fruitful plant that bears thorns, or that there is a very special kind of sheep that is carnivorous and preys on other sheep This is, of course, nonsense. “Knowing them by their fruits” means that we will be able to observe who they are and KNOW for certain whether they are true sheep or not.
A person’s future status as a believer or unbeliever is something only God knows through divine foreknowledge Unless He imparts some of that knowledge to us through prophecy we cannot possibly know it. However, God, through His divine foreknowledge is able to call people sheep before they have actually chosen to become sheep before they have developed the character of a sheep. He is able to say He already HAS other sheep in another sheep fold even though they have not yet believed or come. They are not yet sheep in time in space but merely prophetically and we who live in time and space should never confuse reality with a prophetic reference.
Knowing what people will do is not the same as predetermining their decisions. Foreknowledge preserves humanity's power to choose but allows God to use even rebellious people in His redemptive plan. Foreknowledge preempts the philosophical illogicalities and moral atrocities associated with determinism.
This is a declaration that Jesus is not Lord. Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
Shasta
Well-known member
Well, you can make up history or you can read the real thing. However, if you are going to make assertions that this or that author got it all wrong or about what is and what is not "Catholic" then I ordinarily assume you have already read something about it. Of course, you are free to make up opinions without any basis whatsoever.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus tells us that He had Sheep before they hear and believe Jn 10:16. They were His Sheep while they were in unbelief and not following Him!
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beloved57
Well-known member
Christ has Sheep before they hear and believe, so while they are enemies and unbelievers they are still His Sheep Jn 10:16! Now reconcile that!
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