Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Eagles Wings said:
My understanding is that a goat and a sheep do not change and represent the elect and the reprobate.
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beloved57 said:
False teaching
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Romans 5:8 I would suppose it fits with your understanding of what a goat is. My understanding is that we were all sinners so I can forgo the 'goat' moniker if that's the hang up. I don't know of any Calvinist that would argue Romans 5:8 (lest we loose sight of the forest for a non-essential tree at this point).
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
TulipBee said:
WHAT !!! OH go ahead. Let us see you flap your wings and fly away since birds are part of you according to you. Fly boy ! Fly away. We're watching. Go ahead use your powerful free will and start flapping.
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You usually give intelligent answers. That is why I am surprised by all this talk about birds. I never claimed that our wills were completely unrestrained. Nobody but God is omnipotent. I said a lost person could choose to believe in Christ when The Holy Spirit is influencing him to do so. Is this not the entire premise of outreach and evangelism? We preach and invite people to give their lives to Christ. I did not think this was a radical idea. It is not by being powerful in our wills that we come to Christ but by being weak and surrendering ourselves. Free will may seem like a foreign concept to you but when the term was used in the Early Church (centuries before Augustine) it meant simply that man could choose.

Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 AD) … Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life (Letter to the Magnesians 5).

Irenaeus of Lyons (120-202 AD) This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually (Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 37)

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) "...if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (First Apology chap. 43)

This was the view of all theologians, teachers and apologists for the first three hundred years of the Church before Augustine who was the source of Calvin's doctrine. So really the view I have elucidated is the most ancient one. It comes through the generations that followed the Apostles
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Lon said:
Romans 5:8 I would suppose it fits with your understanding of what a goat is. My understanding is that we were all sinners so I can forgo the 'goat' moniker if that's the hang up. I don't know of any Calvinist that would argue Romans 5:8 (lest we loose sight of the forest for a non-essential tree at this point).
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All sinners are not goats, some are Sheep.

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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
You usually give intelligent answers. That is why I am surprised by all this talk about birds. I never claimed that our wills were completely unrestrained. Nobody but God is omnipotent. I said a lost person could choose to believe in Christ when The Holy Spirit is influencing him to do so. Is this not the entire premise of outreach and evangelism? We preach and invite people to give their lives to Christ. I did not think this was a radical idea. It is not by being powerful in our wills that we come to Christ but by being weak and surrendering ourselves. Free will may seem like a foreign concept to you but when the term was used in the Early Church (centuries before Augustine) it meant simply that man could choose.

Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 AD) … Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life (Letter to the Magnesians 5).

Irenaeus of Lyons (120-202 AD) This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually (Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 37)

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) "...if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (First Apology chap. 43)





if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it is predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.”

Clement echoed the same belief: “Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.”

This was the view of all theologians, teachers and apologists for the first three hundred years of the Church before Augustine who was the source of Calvin's doctrine. So really the view I have elucidated is the most ancient one. It comes through the generations that followed the Apostles
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False teaching

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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
I don't have one verbatim. Do you have one verbatim that says man has a freewill?

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Of course not. I said that because you have been saying for quite some time "show me one scripture that says man has a freewill." All doctrines are not laid out in one-sentence aphorisms, however much we might wish they were.
 
Eagles Wings

Eagles Wings

New member
Lon said:
Romans 5:8 I would suppose it fits with your understanding of what a goat is. My understanding is that we were all sinners so I can forgo the 'goat' moniker if that's the hang up. I don't know of any Calvinist that would argue Romans 5:8 (lest we loose sight of the forest for a non-essential tree at this point).
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Agreed, and thanks, Lon.
 
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Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Lon said:
Romans 5:8 I would suppose it fits with your understanding of what a goat is. My understanding is that we were all sinners so I can forgo the 'goat' moniker if that's the hang up. I don't know of any Calvinist that would argue Romans 5:8 (lest we loose sight of the forest for a non-essential tree at this point).
Click to expand...


The goats are the reprobates which were cursed from everlasting; never loved by God or chosen to Salvation, but were appointed to perdition, condemnation from the foundation of the world Mat.25:41; John 3:36; Rom. 9:22; Jude 1:4!
 
TulipBee

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Shasta said:
You usually give intelligent answers. That is why I am surprised by all this talk about birds. I never claimed that our wills were completely unrestrained. Nobody but God is omnipotent. I said a lost person could choose to believe in Christ when The Holy Spirit is influencing him to do so. Is this not the entire premise of outreach and evangelism? We preach and invite people to give their lives to Christ. I did not think this was a radical idea. It is not by being powerful in our wills that we come to Christ but by being weak and surrendering ourselves. Free will may seem like a foreign concept to you but when the term was used in the Early Church (centuries before Augustine) it meant simply that man could choose.

Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 AD) … Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life (Letter to the Magnesians 5).

Irenaeus of Lyons (120-202 AD) This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually (Against Heresies Book IV, Chapter 37)

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) "...if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (First Apology chap. 43)

This was the view of all theologians, teachers and apologists for the first three hundred years of the Church before Augustine who was the source of Calvin's doctrine. So really the view I have elucidated is the most ancient one. It comes through the generations that followed the Apostles
Click to expand...
Early church fathers is like reading Billy Graham. Lots of inaccuracy
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
Of course not. I said that because you have been saying for quite some time "show me one scripture that says man has a freewill." All doctrines are not laid out in one-sentence aphorisms, however much we might wish they were.
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I have this verbatim however regarding the carnal natural man in the flesh #1 They cant submit to God Rom 8:7

[FONT=&quot]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



#2 He cannot please God Rom 8:8
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

​Man has no freewill to do what God says he cant do ![/FONT]
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
I have this verbatim however regarding the carnal natural man in the flesh #1 They cant submit to God Rom 8:7

#2 He cannot please God Rom 8:8
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT="]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

​Man has no freewill to do what God says he cant do ![/FONT]
Click to expand...

An interpretation that only works in one translation is seldom right. "Carnal mind" is a term that describes a particular mindset, one that is governed by the desires of the flesh and that serves self before God. There is no difference in saying a person has a "carnal mind" than in saying they have "a sinful mind" A mind ruled by sin cannot serve God that is as long as it is sinful. Because this is antithetical to serving God a person will not and cannot serve God as long as they remains in this state.

Romans 8:7
New International Version
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

English Standard Version
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

Berean Literal Bible
because the mind of the flesh is hostility toward God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, for not even can it be.

New American Standard Bible
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God's law, for it is unable to do so.

International Standard Version
That is why the mind that focuses on human nature is hostile toward God. It refuses to submit to the authority of God's Law because it is powerless to do so.

NET Bible
because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so

Still the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to influence men to turn to God:

7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; (John 16:7-11)

His mission is directed at the world not just to a select few. Those who already know Christ are already aware they are sinners and do not need Him to convict them - unless they happen to lapse and fall into sin.

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth (on the cross), will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)

Jesus does not say I will draw "a pre-selected few OUT of all peoples" but simply "I will draw all people."

It is not true that unregenerate man has no desire at all for God. The desire for peace, for love, for the alleviation of misery and for life everlasting motivates many people. The people that spoke with Jesus often asked what they could do to inherit eternal life. Augustine said that the human heart has a "God-shaped hole" that that is not satisfied by anything but Him. If you think worldly people have no desire for God whatsoever then, all I can say is you must not talk to very many of them. Still, having a natural desire God is insufficient without the Spirit's influence. Spiritual hunger can just as well lead people into the occult. The Spirit's influence is not irresistible. Therefore when He convicts a human soul a battle ensues inside them before they will be WILLING to let go of the carnal mind. They need to be persuadedto let go. God is not going to force them to let go like a demon taking forcible control over a possessed person.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Jn 10:16

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The fact that God foreknows who will become His sheep does not make them His sheep in the present. I do not imagine even you would call a person who slaughtered sheep, who allied themselves with Christ's enemies, whose mind was carnal and full of religious pride and who persecuted Christ Himself a "sheep." The behavior and mentality of such a person was like that of a wolf rather than a sheep. Yet such a man was Saul of Tarsus. When Jesus spoke with him on the Damascus Road he asked "Who are you" because unlike a true sheep he did not know his master's voice. He had heard about Jesus but did not know him before then. He certainly did not "follow after Him." He was a man in rabid rebellion against the Lord. Like the Devil who was his Master he was doing the devil's work.

According to Jesus His sheep:
1. Hear His voice
2. They have a personal acquaintance with Him
3. They follow Him (they submit to Him)

These are not characteristics of a person before they have experienced salvation. No one is a sheep until they behave and think like a sheep.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
The fact that God foreknows who will become His sheep does not make them His sheep in the present. I do not imagine even you would call a person who slaughtered sheep, who allied themselves with Christ's enemies, whose mind was carnal and full of religious pride and who persecuted Christ Himself a "sheep." The behavior and mentality of such a person was like that of a wolf rather than a sheep. Yet such a man was Saul of Tarsus. When Jesus spoke with him on the Damascus Road he asked "Who are you" because unlike a true sheep he did not know his master's voice. He had heard about Jesus but did not know him before then. He certainly did not "follow after Him." He was a man in rabid rebellion against the Lord. Like the Devil who was his Master he was doing the devil's work.

According to Jesus His sheep:
1. Hear His voice
2. They have a personal acquaintance with Him
3. They follow Him (they submit to Him)

These are not characteristics of a person before they have experienced salvation. No one is a sheep until they behave and think like a sheep.
Click to expand...
Moot point. Christ has Sheep before they hear and believe! Jn 10:16

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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
TulipBee said:
Roman Catholic Church is an offspring of the early church. They wanted free will.
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The Roman Catholic Church did not exist during the time of the men I quoted. The teaching on freewill was universal in the Early Church starting from the first century. Augustine, who was Calvin's teacher has been called by many the "father of the Catholic Church." He made predeterminism a teaching when it had not been before but he lived in the fifth century. He was not able to consult the earlier sources or the original scriptures because he spoke Latin and not Greek. Calving was a student of Augustine and quoted him over 100 times in the Institutes.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
TulipBee said:
Early church fathers is like reading Billy Graham. Lots of inaccuracy
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Right. Billy Graham, the greatest evangelist in a century is a false teacher. The ECF reveal the general teachings from the earliest times. You do not like them because Calvin and Augustine disagreed with them.
 
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