Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
You're not one of the chosen ones either because you don't believe this simple verse. Calvin's army of paper soldiers are dropping like flies.
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God's Words are not simple, but they are Spiritual, which can only be comprehended by those who have been made Spiritually Alive in New Birth John 8:47. Thus your understanding of His Word remains darkened Eph. 4:18.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Nanja said:
God's Words are not simple, but they are Spiritual, which can only be comprehended by those who have been made Spiritually Alive in New Birth John 8:47. Thus your understanding of His Word remains darkened Eph. 4:18.
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I believe all those verses and 1John 2:2 as well.
 
TulipBee

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Shasta said:
Well, you can make up history or you can read the real thing. However, if you are going to make assertions that this or that author got it all wrong or about what is and what is not "Catholic" then I ordinarily assume you have already read something about it. Of course, you are free to make up opinions without any basis whatsoever.
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I'm based on everything
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Christ gave His Life exclusively for the World of the Sheep John 10:11,15, His Church Eph. 5:25, His People Mat. 1:21. They are one and the same, His Body chosen in Him Eph. 1:4 before the World began:

All the Election of Grace:

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
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Again you are inserting your own words into the text. As I said before, though the term "world" (kosmos) is often used to signify all the inhabitants of the earth or else the subset of ungodly men it is not used for the "elect." Here is what John Calvin had to say about the word:

16. For God so loved the world. Christ opens up the first cause, and, as it were, the source of our salvation, and he does so, that no doubt may remain; for our minds cannot find calm repose, until we arrive at the unmerited love of God. As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish. And this order ought to be carefully observed; for such is the wicked ambition which belongs to our nature, that when the question relates to the origin of our salvation, we quickly form diabolical imaginations about our own merits. Accordingly, we imagine that God is reconciled to us, because he has reckoned us worthy that he should look upon us. But Scripture everywhere extols his pure and unmingled mercy, which sets aside all merits.
Commentary on John - Volume 1 (3:16)
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Commenting on John 3:16 Calvin says that "world" means the entire human race which, he says, God loves and does not want to perish.

I will also comment on the scripture you brought up

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

It is certainly true that God did not save us according to our works but according to his grace. However, since none of us has been around very long, relatively speaking, in what way could God have given us anything "before the world began?" Since only God was around then we can assume that His purpose and grace towards us was present in His mind even then. Since God knows the minds and choices of every being that would exist it is not surprising that He would know which ones of us would voluntarily receive His grace and choose to be a part of His purpose.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
I believe all those verses and 1John 2:2 as well.
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I believe 1 John 2:2 also and it contradicts the idea that "world" means the world of the elect

2 And He Himself is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for OUR sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world 1 John 2:2.

When John says "our sins" he is including himself as a believer and the other believers who received his letter. Then he goes on to include "the whole world." Now if "world" meant the world of the elect then he has repeated himself, just as much as if he had said "He is the atoning sacrifice for believer's sins and not only for believers sins but also for that of believers
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Shasta said:
I believe 1 John 2:2 also and it contradicts the idea that "world" means the world of the elect

2 And He Himself is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for OUR sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world 1 John 2:2.

When John says "our sins" he is including himself as a believer and the other believers who received his letter. Then he goes on to include "the whole world." Now if "world" meant the world of the elect then he has repeated himself, just as much as if he had said "He is the atoning sacrifice for believer's sins and not only for believers sins but also for that of believers
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This verse refutes all Calvinists. They will write ten pages of treatise to get around the meaning which is so clear that even a child can understand. Calvinists are unbelievers. 4-point Calvinists who accept that Jesus is the savior of the world I can tolerate.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Epoisses said:
This verse refutes all Calvinists. They will write ten pages of treatise to get around the meaning which is so clear that even a child can understand. Calvinists are unbelievers. 4-point Calvinists who accept that Jesus is the savior of the world I can tolerate.
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You don't believe the verse because it means the elect.

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