fishrovmen
Active member
You have repeated that phrase countless times, but it doesnt explain why forgiven and destroyed sins need to be imputed back to people if people wont even be judged by sins?
You make a mockery of the sufferings of Christ!!
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
You have repeated that phrase countless times, but it doesnt explain why forgiven and destroyed sins need to be imputed back to people if people wont even be judged by sins?
You make a mockery of the sufferings of Christ!!
fishrovmen
Active member
You are Pater, and upon a crock of lies you take your perch; and the traits of common sense, logic and reason will not prevail against it.
lifeisgood
New member
What has been predestined is the plan of God for humankind.
The Plan has been predestined, not the people.
No where in the Bible does it say that this person is born saved directly going to heaven and that other person is born unsaved directly going to hell.
The Plan has been predestined, not the people.
No where in the Bible does it say that this person is born saved directly going to heaven and that other person is born unsaved directly going to hell.
If that were true, which it is NOT, God would be unjust and it would not be possible to trust or believe in him.
Perhaps this is where Calvinism is at.
Brother Ducky
New member
Not sure you can make a case for the "plan" being predestined, but not the people.
You are correct. Nowhere does it say that any are born "saved." Being predestined does not mean that you are so born, but that God has determined to save you at some point in time.
Brother Ducky
New member
Why would one need to come to Christ as a repentant sinner? Are not sins meaningless with respect to salvation? After all, do you not say that God would be "unjust" to judge on the basis of sin?
flintstoned
New member
Scripture specifically says that God predestined people.
Romans 8:30
whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
God chose a people before the foundation of the world, and predestined them to be called, justified, and glorified. They are not born saved! They are brought to salvation through faith in Jesus.
Nobody (except maybe Pate) is trying to suggest that anyone is born saved or unsaved.
This is always the run of the mill, repeated thing against Calvinism.
The simple answer is yes.
The other answer is that if you fall by your own faultiness, it doesn't matter if one was by free will or predestination. Square is square.
He made mankind foreknowing the outcome, so you cannot call one evil and not the other.
Look at the matter of Judas, for example. It is stated that 'it would have been better if he were never born'. So why even create him? You see, there's a big intellectual sin with open theism, and it can be seen from this perspective- Judas was created to his own destruction, and yet it served a great purpose.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
Some elect are living as sinners on earth. They are chosen to heaven but are not there yet so their being chosen is a promise that they will be saved from their foolish choice to be evil in HIS eyes and will be made heaven ready.
And since Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the Sons of GOD shouted for joy? tells us clearly that people were there at the foundation /creation of the physical universe and since it is possible if not probable that some of these singing HIS praises are the elect then of course their election was before the foundation of the world...
but without implying that HE had no basis in reason to choose some people over others nor that HE knew who would be damned before HE created them but created them anyway...that old blasphemy that underlies all of orthodoxy.
Those who were elect He sowed into the world as people of the kingdom while the non-elect He let the devil sow into the world as people of the evil one which proves that our coming to the world was not by a creation since the devil cannot create.
ttruscott
Well-known member
The Bible teaches no such thing. We are all sinners without works ON EARTH! IF Adam caused sin, then why am I guilty and punished for that sin against Ezek 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.?
GOD by making us in Adam is the cause of our being evil if being in Adam causes us to be evil. The Bible teaches no such thing. GOD cannot create evil nor would HE ever create that which HE hates, evil people...we are the Bride of HIS Son - how can anyone think that to get HIS Son a Bride HE must put them into Adam so as to make them sinners??? The Bible teaches no such thing!
Your interpretation is false.
We are sinners because our first Father who we are related to sinned.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.
God did not create Adam as a sinner. Adam was created as innocent. Adam by his own free will chose to sin against God and in doing so plunged the whole human race into sin.
It is not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't accept Christ as our savior.
beloved57
Well-known member
Invalid comments not supported by scripture !
To believe that God gives some life so that he can damn them to hell is not biblical and carries with it sever spiritual consequences.
To believe that God would do such a thing is to believe that God is an unjust tyrant.
If you believe that God is an unjust tyrant this means that he cannot be trusted or believed upon. How could anyone have faith in this kind of a God?
Since salvation is by grace through faith you do not have a savior.
To believe that God would do such a thing is to believe that God is an unjust tyrant.
If you believe that God is an unjust tyrant this means that he cannot be trusted or believed upon. How could anyone have faith in this kind of a God?
Since salvation is by grace through faith you do not have a savior.
Nanja
Well-known member
Not all men have Faith 2 Thes. 3:2.
Faith is only found in the Spiritually Born man:
The New Creation Man Eph. 4:24; Rom. 16:26!
No one can have Faith in God unless it has been given them in New Birth Gal. Rom. 5:15; Eph. 2:8; Gal. 5:22.
God's Grace was given to His Elect, the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before the World began 2 Tim. 1:9.
Grace Saves and gives Faith Acts 15:11 to the Chosen of God John 15:16; 1 Pet. 5:10; Acts 20:24; Rom. 9:18; ; Eph. 1:4.
Is it just those who receive / accept Christ?
Who is it that can, without first being Born of God?
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
~~~~~
Faith is only found in the Spiritually Born man:
The New Creation Man Eph. 4:24; Rom. 16:26!
No one can have Faith in God unless it has been given them in New Birth Gal. Rom. 5:15; Eph. 2:8; Gal. 5:22.
God's Grace was given to His Elect, the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before the World began 2 Tim. 1:9.
Grace Saves and gives Faith Acts 15:11 to the Chosen of God John 15:16; 1 Pet. 5:10; Acts 20:24; Rom. 9:18; ; Eph. 1:4.
Is it just those who receive / accept Christ?
Who is it that can, without first being Born of God?
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
Blaspheming God !
You do not have a choice in your salvation.
No it doesn't.
Even if He created men with merely 'foreknowledge', He still created men to destruction at will.
You can't really escape predestination, that's the point of Reformed doctrine being called such- it's a reversal of centuries of heresy and men trying to be in control of everything. Who is God- Him or your 'free will'?
Well, let's put it this way; Calvinism is a false belief system
created by John Calvin and his ilk. False doctrine is never fashionable.
Calvinism puts the cart before the horse. It teaches that man must
be regenerated before he can receive faith. It also teaches that God
chose before the foundation of the world who would be saved (The Elect)
and who would be damned for eternity. (The non-Elect) Some, hyper-Calvinists,
such as, Beloved57, believe that God creates ALL sin. Calvinists also
believe that man is so depraved he cannot/would not, place his faith in
Christ. Calvinists believe that man has no free-will choice of his own.
Calvinism portrays mankind as a "robot/puppet" with no will of his own,
other than to commit sin.
be regenerated before he can receive faith. It also teaches that God
chose before the foundation of the world who would be saved (The Elect)
and who would be damned for eternity. (The non-Elect) Some, hyper-Calvinists,
such as, Beloved57, believe that God creates ALL sin. Calvinists also
believe that man is so depraved he cannot/would not, place his faith in
Christ. Calvinists believe that man has no free-will choice of his own.
Calvinism portrays mankind as a "robot/puppet" with no will of his own,
other than to commit sin.
fishrovmen
Active member
Robert, are you going to answer the question?