Calvinism Verses the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ

God's Truth

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Stop right there. That's the qualifier. You have been going on about the fact that "whosoever" means "all" when "all" by itself doesn't make sense - it needs to be defined (all what?).

So I agree with you - Jesus said that only those believing ("all those believing" is what I understand the Greek says with fairly literal rendering). But if you are going to address the issue, you have to be consistent and not universalistic.

The second issue is...



And, very simply, that's where you need to focus your efforts. No one (that I know of) says anything besides that ALL those believing will receive eternal life from Him.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:25-29

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:32-40

Jesus wasn't going to turn anyone away, right? And here were these Jews asking Him - straight out - for this living water and the bread of life. They even called Him Lord. And what did Jesus tell them? You don't believe me (v36).

And in the passage before it from John 10, what does Jesus say? He gives life to those who are His sheep. He doesn't say that those who desire life become His sheep. He doesn't even say that those who believe Him become His sheep. He says "You don't believe because you aren't my sheep. My sheep believe and I give them eternal life."

So if you are going to address the Calvinistic view of salvation, you need to address it honestly - not by simply saying "whosoever means all" - because that just obfuscates, misdirects (Calvinists believe that too) and doesn't deal with where Calvinists are coming from. They are not trying to say that people want to believe but God says "no" - rather that true saving faith only comes from God. You need to deal with that directly or else you are just creating a smokescreen. Calvinism deals with how God works in salvation. Arminianism comes at it from man's point of view. Man doesn't recognize God's work a lot of the time and so where a man may legitimately think he believes of his own accord, he doesn't recognize the great work of God behind it all.

Does a man want to resist such a marvelous gift of God? Can a man resist it?

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:15-21

Whose work is in view? Ours or God's?

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:1-10

Does a wicked man just decide (of his own volition) to change? Does he decide to change from following his own lusts to following Christ? That is not the work of man to bring that about.

Yet we aren't robots. We aren't puppets. We are, however, slaves to whomever (or whatever) we serve. There has to be a deep work to change our allegiance from ourselves to Christ. That is in no way of ourselves or of our own will.

But our wills are not forced - not coerced - as some make Calvinism to say. As far as the above goes, I agree with the classic Protestant Reformed view. But more importantly, this is what scripture says. Forget Dordt and Westminster - these are some of the passages that show the gift of salvation and the depths of man's natural fallen condition that make crossing from death to life (in the sense Jesus defines it - remembering that those that came to Him for bread didn't believe Him) in any sense something he can will or do for himself.

Whoever becomes whoever of the saved. That is a twisting of the scriptures.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Do you have a dictionary. Look up "Whosoever".

Jesus said that "whosoever" meaning all, anyone, everyone, that believed in him should not perish.

Jesus qualified "whosoever" when he said that those that believed in him should not perish.

But everyone has the opportunity to believe in him.

Good post Pate.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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What does that matter?

You don't believe the scriptures anyway because you haven't been given understanding of them Eph. 4:18.

~~~~~

You're a "Hyper-Calvinist" along with B57 and both of you are confused beyond measure. You wouldn't know the Gospel from a fictional Novel. Both you and B57 believe that God creates all sin.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Those scriptures are law.

I am not under the law, I am "In Christ". God sees me as perfect and complete "In Christ".
You teach against Christ death and what it accomplished, for you teach that people Christ died for and made Perfect, wind up lost in their sins in unbelief and in hell!
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Whoever becomes whoever of the saved. That is a twisting of the scriptures.

Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 2:23-25

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I Cor 2:4-5

The critical thing is not the will or understanding of man, but the power of God. And God does blind eyes and hearts...

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Cor 2:6-8

So man is kept in the dark by God and man does not know the things of God but by the Spirit of God.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I Cor 2:9-14

You don't get there from being a child of wrath (by nature!) because you simply decide to stop. The crossover from death to life, from unbelief to belief - it has to be of God.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
You teach against Christ death and what it accomplished, for you teach that people Christ died for and made Perfect, wind up lost in their sins in unbelief and in hell!

Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15, And is Lord.
 

God's Truth

New member
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

John 2:23-25

That scriptures proves we are not saved by faith alone. Jesus does not preach faith alone.

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I Cor 2:4-5

God testified to the message, during the laying of the foundation, by allowing the apostles to do miraculous things.

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

Matthew 10:1
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

The critical thing is not the will or understanding of man, but the power of God. And God does blind eyes and hearts...

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Cor 2:6-8

So man is kept in the dark by God and man does not know the things of God but by the Spirit of God.
God hardened faithless Jews when Jesus came. Jesus came first for those who ALREADY belonged to God by faith. The old law was not based on faith, and faithless Jews were cut off and hardened. When Jesus was crucified, then all can come to him, even the once cut off Jews.

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I Cor 2:9-14

You don't get there from being a child of wrath (by nature!) because you simply decide to stop. The crossover from death to life, from unbelief to belief - it has to be of God.

God saves those who believe and obey Him---He gives UNDERSTANDING to those who believe and obey Him. I have scriptures saying that. Are you interested in going further?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
That scriptures proves we are not saved by faith alone. Jesus does not preach faith alone.



God testified to the message, during the laying of the foundation, by allowing the apostles to do miraculous things.

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

Matthew 10:1
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

The critical thing is not the will or understanding of man, but the power of God. And God does blind eyes and hearts...

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I Cor 2:6-8

So man is kept in the dark by God and man does not know the things of God but by the Spirit of God. [/QUOUTE]
God hardened faithless Jews when Jesus came. Jesus came first for those who ALREADY belonged to God by faith. The old law was not based on faith, and faithless Jews were cut off and hardened. When Jesus was crucified, then all can come to him, even the once cut off Jews.

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."



God saves those who believe and obey Him---He gives UNDERSTANDING to those who believe and obey Him. I have scriptures saying that. Are you interested in going further?

God saves those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. Works play no part in that process.
 

God's Truth

New member
Show your Scripture that Paul said you MUST repent in order to be saved?



Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Acts 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart.

2 Timothy 2:25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
 

God's Truth

New member
God saves those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. Works play no part in that process.



Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling


2 Thessalonians 3:14 If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.15 Yet do not regard them as an enemy, but warn them as you would a fellow believer.


1 Corinthians 5:2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

1 Corinthians 5:13
God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you."

Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


How about that? Paul teaches what Jesus teaches when he walked the earth.
 

God's Truth

New member
God saves those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior. Works play no part in that process.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
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You don't believe the Gospel, how could you when you teach that people Christ died for are going to perish in their sins!

You "PREACH" that there are ONLY two posters on TOL that will inherit eternal life. Those two are yourself and Nanja. The rest of the posters are headed for Hell in accordance with your "CRAZY" mindset. You are similar to Letsargue.

You even blame God for creating ALL of humanities sins. That's why nobody takes you seriously. You're a certified "Nutcase."
 

God's Truth

New member
You "PREACH" that there are ONLY two posters on TOL that will inherit eternal life. Those two are yourself and Nanja. The rest of the posters are headed for Hell in accordance with your "CRAZY" mindset. You are similar to Letsargue.

You even blame God for creating ALL of humanities sins. That's why nobody takes you seriously. You're a certified "Nutcase."

What is it when a "nut case" does not know that he is a nut case?

Jesus says, "But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


What is right?

You preach faith and no obedience to be saved; versus beloved57 preaching no faith no obedience.

What is right? Which one makes the biggest sense? Does doing absolutely nothing God wants make one right, or does one only believing and doing nothing make one right? Think about it...how is doing ANYTHING against God right? How is not obeying and not having faith ever right?

You both are wrong.
 
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