Nanja
Well-known member
Right, and the non-elect can't ever believe it because they won't ever be saved from a lost state.
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Calvinism Verses the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Right, and the non-elect can't ever believe it because they won't ever be saved from a lost state.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Sure you right !
nikolai_42
Well-known member
View attachment 24725
Somehow, Robert, you've got the idea that "whosoever" means "everyone". A simple distinction should show this to be incorrect.
If there are 100 people in a room and I say (to those in the room) "Whosoever wears blue jeans will receive $100" and 45 are wearing blue jeans, then 45 get $100. Not everyone. The word "whosoever" has to have a limiter - a qualifier. So another way to say "whosoever believeth" "all those believing".
And there are other scriptures to show this as well :
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:19
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:28
(Matthew really seems to like the word since it is in the gospel nearly 30 times...)
All the word is saying is that there is a condition - and everyone who meets that condition falls into a given category. Whosoever believes - the condition is believing. Everyone who believes on Jesus will have everlasting life. That's what the verse is saying. Just like lusting is a condition. Everyone who lusts after a woman in their heart is guilty of adultery before God.
Somehow, you've imported the idea into it that it implies a universality beyond its qualification (which is everyone who believes and ONLY everyone who believes). And with that, you've brought about the belief that it has to mean that there can be no work of God to bring about this belief - that it is entirely up to man and his will to believe. There is nothing in the text to support that - and is actually suspect given that Jesus says that those that don't (currently) believe are ALREADY condemned. In other words, there is a pre-judgment - not a judgment waiting until He sees who will believe and who won't.
The word "WHOSOEVER" means everyone. Read your dictionary if you have one.
If you try to say that "Whosoever" means some certain persons or groups then the word losses its meaning and no longer means "whosoever".
Niko is confused about the TRUE Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Niko, Christ died on the cross for the sins of ALL humanity. Not just a few so-called "Elect." Revelation 20:12 states: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS."
This is the final judgment of the unsaved. Notice, they're not being judged by their SINS, but, by their WORKS. Why is that? Because Christ took care of the sin question 2000 years ago. He died for the sins of ALL humanity. However, ONLY those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits of His death and resurrection.
beloved57
Well-known member
The word whosoever always has a qualifier, like whosoever wills, so that limits the whosoever!
Nope, "WHOSOEVER" means everyone, anyone, all people.
I guess you will just have to cross it out of your Bible.
Nanja
Well-known member
Very true. And also, when we compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor. 2:13, another qualifier is that the 'whosoever' one must first be quickened:
Ps. 80:18b
quicken us [live for ever], and we will call [qara] upon thy name.
So they must first be quickened [made spiritually alive / born again] before they can call upon the name of the Lord and be Saved, because scripture also says that the natural man can't do anything that pleases God Rom. 8:7-8.
Is. 64:7
And there is none that calleth [qara] upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
But for one who has been quickened by the Spirit, they shall call upon the name of the Lord because they are Saved.
It bears evidence that their iniquities were laid upon their Surety Christ Jesus instead of them Is. 53:6.
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beloved57
Well-known member
Absolutely !
You not only have a problem with the Bible, you also have a problem with the dictionary.
beloved57
Well-known member
Insults cant help you !
There is a difference between insults and truth. She has a problem with both the Bible and the dictionary.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
What do these verses say :
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:28
beloved57
Well-known member
Again insults don't help you.
Those scriptures are law.
I am not under the law, I am "In Christ". God sees me as perfect and complete "In Christ".
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Still waiting to see why "all" doesn't require a qualifier. John 3:16 says that only those that believe are saved...that's not "all" without restriction. That's "all" those that meet a certain requirement (in this case the requirement is "believing").
What's wrong with that? I think I asked this once before and instead of addressing the limitation (as only those believing) you just continued to say "whosoever means all" instead of dealing directly with the full statement.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
This is a simple question of grammar. What does the "whosoever" imply here? That everyone (without exception) calls his brother a fool and everyone without exception looks at a woman to lust after her? Is that what these "whosoever"s are saying?
But if you want to go down that road, what about this law :
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
I Corinthians 3:17
Do you have a dictionary. Look up "Whosoever".
Jesus said that "whosoever" meaning all, anyone, everyone, that believed in him should not perish.
Jesus qualified "whosoever" when he said that those that believed in him should not perish.
But everyone has the opportunity to believe in him.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Stop right there. That's the qualifier. You have been going on about the fact that "whosoever" means "all" when "all" by itself doesn't make sense - it needs to be defined (all what?).
So I agree with you - Jesus said that only those believing ("all those believing" is what I understand the Greek says with fairly literal rendering). But if you are going to address the issue, you have to be consistent and not universalistic.
The second issue is...
And, very simply, that's where you need to focus your efforts. No one (that I know of) says anything besides that ALL those believing will receive eternal life from Him.
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:25-29
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:32-40
Jesus wasn't going to turn anyone away, right? And here were these Jews asking Him - straight out - for this living water and the bread of life. They even called Him Lord. And what did Jesus tell them? You don't believe me (v36).
And in the passage before it from John 10, what does Jesus say? He gives life to those who are His sheep. He doesn't say that those who desire life become His sheep. He doesn't even say that those who believe Him become His sheep. He says "You don't believe because you aren't my sheep. My sheep believe and I give them eternal life."
So if you are going to address the Calvinistic view of salvation, you need to address it honestly - not by simply saying "whosoever means all" - because that just obfuscates, misdirects (Calvinists believe that too) and doesn't deal with where Calvinists are coming from. They are not trying to say that people want to believe but God says "no" - rather that true saving faith only comes from God. You need to deal with that directly or else you are just creating a smokescreen. Calvinism deals with how God works in salvation. Arminianism comes at it from man's point of view. Man doesn't recognize God's work a lot of the time and so where a man may legitimately think he believes of his own accord, he doesn't recognize the great work of God behind it all.
Does a man want to resist such a marvelous gift of God? Can a man resist it?
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Romans 9:15-21
Whose work is in view? Ours or God's?
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:1-10
Does a wicked man just decide (of his own volition) to change? Does he decide to change from following his own lusts to following Christ? That is not the work of man to bring that about.
Yet we aren't robots. We aren't puppets. We are, however, slaves to whomever (or whatever) we serve. There has to be a deep work to change our allegiance from ourselves to Christ. That is in no way of ourselves or of our own will.
But our wills are not forced - not coerced - as some make Calvinism to say. As far as the above goes, I agree with the classic Protestant Reformed view. But more importantly, this is what scripture says. Forget Dordt and Westminster - these are some of the passages that show the gift of salvation and the depths of man's natural fallen condition that make crossing from death to life (in the sense Jesus defines it - remembering that those that came to Him for bread didn't believe Him) in any sense something he can will or do for himself.
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