Calvinism, Arminianism, and Open theism

[godrulz]

The prophecy also foretells the rebuilding of the city and temple, at a time when the city and temple were still around.

I would love to have an Open Theist give me the Open view on this prophecy, assuming there is one. So far no one has explained this one to me.

Boyd, Sanders, and others routinely deal with this objection.

The naming of John the Baptist and Jesus were also issues in non-Open Theism views like free will Arminianism. Calvinism could opt for raw decretal determinism/causation.

If they did not name Him John, he would not be able to speak. Sooner or later, the dude agreed to name him John. God influenced Jesus' parents (vs caused) to name Him Jesus.

Cyrus' naming and work was an exceptional vs normative issue. God set parameters and limitations on freedom (principles include people were often wicked, suspension of will is temporary, overriding free choices does not deal with salvation of the person, events relate to the salvation of the world, the consequence of the action was suspended, etc. e.g. include Balaam's blessing of Israel when tried to curse; hardening of Pharaoh's heart; stirring Cyrus to release Israel and build temple; turn Nebuchadnezzar's mind into animal ...see Michael Saia 'Does God know the futurte?'). He could influence more causally to ensure that Cyrus was named and was moved to build the temple. This cannot be extrapolated to exhaustive, definite foreknowledge, or meticulous control of everything (Adam vs God gave names to the animals). It was not a salvific issue. Freedom is finite. God can strike someone dead. He can orchestrate and influence until any unconditional prophecy is fulfilled, no matter how long it takes or by what means.

Do not try to make a generalization from a specific, isolated issue that is not parallel to other prophecy types or historical situations. Scripture shows that man has genuine freedom and God does not micromanage everything (though He does when and if He wants to, exceptionally and sovereignly).

 

[eveningsky339]

Now back that up with Scripture.

I quote again...

who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blo.od:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

As for time being part of the fabric of space, it's been scientifically proven through controlled experimentation. We've been over this. Although I don't expect you to believe it, since it would dash your whole theology of a finite God to pieces.

 

[Choleric]

Boyd, Sanders, and others routinely deal with this objection.

The naming of John the Baptist and Jesus were also issues in non-Open Theism views like free will Arminianism. Calvinism could opt for raw decretal determinism/causation.

If they did not name Him John, he would not be able to speak. Sooner or later, the dude agreed to name him John. God influenced Jesus' parents (vs caused) to name Him Jesus.

I agree with you on Jesus and John, but the Scriptures clearly show us the action of God in this circumstance, right. Can we take the principle of influence and use it to account for each prophecy?

Cyrus' naming and work was an exceptional vs normative issue. God set parameters and limitations on freedom (principles include people were often wicked, suspension of will is temporary, overriding free choices does not deal with salvation of the person, events relate to the salvation of the world, the consequence of the action was suspended, etc. e.g. include Balaam's blessing of Israel when tried to curse; hardening of Pharaoh's heart; stirring Cyrus to release Israel and build temple; turn Nebuchadnezzar's mind into animal ...see Michael Saia 'Does God know the futurte?').

So, hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not have consequence? As far as Cyrus, if it was an issue of simply stirring, I could handle that, like naming Jesus or John. But God called him by name generations before he was born, and then gave specific detail about the takeover of Babylon. It is more than stirring someone, it is stirring generations of people and then orchestrating events involving thousands of people. I simply find it difficult to believe God would violate the Free Will of all those people.

Do not try to make a generalization from a specific, isolated issue that is not parallel to other prophecy types or historical situations. Scripture shows that man has genuine freedom and God does not micromanage everything (though He does when and if He wants to, exceptionally and sovereignly).

I agree that God does not micromanage, that is part of my problem with the Cyrus prophecy. I also agree that man has free will, that is why I have trouble with the overriding of Free Will in specific instances.

I have not totally written this OT off, and I appreciate you taking the time to address the point. I hope to continue to learn more about it all and come to a better understanding of the view...

 

[godrulz]

I quote again...




As for time being part of the fabric of space, it's been scientifically proven through controlled experimentation. We've been over this. Although I don't expect you to believe it, since it would dash your whole theology of a finite God to pieces.

In Open Theism, God is not finite. Critics confuse it with Process Thought or finite godism. They are misguided.

Time is not space. Before material creation, God still experienced sequence, duration, succession i.e. time.

Choleric: God can and does intervene unilaterally as it is necessary for His purposes. Any exceptional case of impingement of free will cannot be extrapolated as God's normative M.O.

 

[eveningsky339]

In Open Theism, God is not finite. Critics confuse it with Process Thought or finite godism. They are misguided.

Time is not space. Before material creation, God still experienced sequence, duration, succession i.e. time.

Choleric: God can and does intervene unilaterally as it is necessary for His purposes. Any exceptional case of impingement of free will cannot be extrapolated as God's normative M.O.

From a scientific standpoint, time is space. This quality helps to explain sub-atomic particles, quantum mechanics, and other incredibly complicated things. :rain:

If God is experiencing time, then it's obvious that God is sitting on a time line. For there to be a chronological timeline, there must be a beginning. Does God have a beginning?

 

[godrulz]

From a scientific standpoint, time is space. This quality helps to explain sub-atomic particles, quantum mechanics, and other incredibly complicated things. :rain:

If God is experiencing time, then it's obvious that God is sitting on a time line. For there to be a chronological timeline, there must be a beginning. Does God have a beginning?

Theories of relativity, etc. do not apply to the experience of the uncreated Creator before material creation. Subjective perceptions or measures of time should not be confused with the concept itself.

Since time is not space, a time line analogy is flawed. Time is duration, not a 2D line. It is a concept, not a thing. Endless time, like the eternal God, has no beginning and no end. An infinite line is a legit mathematical concept. You do not have to assume it had a beginning (<----------negative numbers 0 positive #s----------->).

God is eternal, but this does not mean timelessness or 'eternal now' simultaneity (your philosophical assumption contrary to the face value reading of Scripture that supports endless time/duration).

 

[eveningsky339]

Theories of relativity, etc. do not apply to the experience of the uncreated Creator before material creation. Subjective perceptions or measures of time should not be confused with the concept itself.

Since time is not space, a time line analogy is flawed. Time is duration, not a 2D line. It is a concept, not a thing. Endless time, like the eternal God, has no beginning and no end. An infinite line is a legit mathematical concept. You do not have to assume it had a beginning (<----------negative numbers 0 positive #s----------->).

God is eternal, but this does not mean timelessness or 'eternal now' simultaneity (your philosophical assumption contrary to the face value reading of Scripture that supports endless time/duration).

Einstein's Theory of Relativity does apply to the "experience" of God. Time is part of the fabric of space in the 4th dimension, which we inhabit. Time slows down as an object gets closer and closer to the speed of light.

It is Einsteins' theories that our space agencies use to put men and women in orbit and bring them back down safely. We wouldn't have arrived at the moon if not these theories of space and time. (If anyone thinks the moon landing was faked, please go here to see your "evidence" shredded apart.)

Many scientists have proposed that Einsteins Theory of Relativity, which states that time is part of the fabric of space (and Creation!), become a law. What would happen to Open Theism then?

 

[Lighthouse]

Come on lighthouse, just tell me where you're going. Don't play with me. Do you seriously want me to copy and paste the entire passage(s)? If you have an explanation, just give it to me:cheers:

I am seriously not asking this to be argumentative. I am trying to learn. I can see some points of OT, but this one is bothering me. I am an honest seeker here, no agenda.

your brother in Christ-

the fighting chicken

I'm just asking you to tell me where it is.

Never mind, I'll look it up on Biblegateway.

Edit: which scripture were you referring to? I found four different books with references to Cyrus.

I quote again...

That says nothing about exhaustive foreknowledge. Care to try again?

As for time being part of the fabric of space, it's been scientifically proven through controlled experimentation. We've been over this. Although I don't expect you to believe it, since it would dash your whole theology of a finite God to pieces.

When and where was is scientifically proven? Where is your evidence to support your claim?

And I used to believe what you believe. Then I read the Bible, and that was dashed to pieces.

P.S.
It is not God that is finite. It is time.:dunce::duh:

 

[Choleric]

I'm just asking you to tell me where it is.

Never mind, I'll look it up on Biblegateway.

Edit: which scripture were you referring to? I found four different books with references to Cyrus.

Start with Isaiah. Those prophecies concerning his name, role, and the way the city would be overtaken is quite detailed, all many generations before he was ever even a thought or possibility.

 

[Lighthouse]

Start with Isaiah. Those prophecies concerning his name, role, and the way the city would be overtaken is quite detailed, all many generations before he was ever even a thought or possibility.

I don't see anything that indicates it was a prophecy.

P.S.
If it were a prophecy, then it could not be before Cyrus was a thought. And if God is outside of time, then it is not before Cyrus was a possibility.:nono:

See how you talk like the future doesn't exist?

Many people believe that time is all in existence now, and yet everyone acts and talks as though it is not. Why is that?

 

[Choleric]

I don't see anything that indicates it was a prophecy.

P.S.
If it were a prophecy, then it could not be before Cyrus was a thought. And if God is outside of time, then it is not before Cyrus was a possibility.:nono:

See how you talk like the future doesn't exist?

Many people believe that time is all in existence now, and yet everyone acts and talks as though it is not. Why is that?

Isa 44:27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

Are you familiar with how Cyrus besieged the city? Diverting the Euphrates?

Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

God was talking to Cyrus, before he was ever conceived, before his grandpa was conceived. He called him by name. How is this not a prophecy?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:

Seems we had a conversation about darkness being a created thing...here is proof out of God's own mouth. This is a total side note, but thought you would find it interesting. I did.

 

[eveningsky339]

When and where was is scientifically proven? Where is your evidence to support your claim?

And I used to believe what you believe. Then I read the Bible, and that was dashed to pieces.

P.S.
It is not God that is finite. It is time.

We've been over this. Two precise atomic clocks were used for the experiment. One was placed in a hypersonic jet... wait, why should I hash this all out again? Use the search button.


The Bible disproves the theory which fuels our successful space program? That makes as much sense as Darth Vader eating seaweed on the a beach in Cancun. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate a pantheistic God tied to Time, His very own Creation.

Time is part of the fabric of space. God is outside the fabric of space.

 

[godrulz]

Start with Isaiah. Those prophecies concerning his name, role, and the way the city would be overtaken is quite detailed, all many generations before he was ever even a thought or possibility.

The issue is the naming in advance. If He can providentially ensure that John and Jesus were given those names (one way or another, whatever intervention was required), then He can ensure that Cyrus was named. Note that this is exceptional. If every person's name on the planet was prophesied in advance, then you could argue for meticulour control or exhaustive definite foreknowledge, but that is not what the evidence points to (your parents freely named you and Adam named the animals without God's coercion, so the issue is unwarranted extrapolation from specific to general, a logical fallacy).

 

[godrulz]

We've been over this. Two precise atomic clocks were used for the experiment. One was placed in a hypersonic jet... wait, why should I hash this all out again? Use the search button.


The Bible disproves the theory which fuels our successful space program? That makes as much sense as Darth Vader eating seaweed on the a beach in Cancun. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate a pantheistic God tied to Time, His very own Creation.

Time is part of the fabric of space. God is outside the fabric of space.

God is ontologically distinct from creation even if He experiences things sequentially like Scripture reveals. This shows that He is personal, not pantheistic (ignorant straw man argument).

You are begging the question, assuming what you are trying to prove.

Just because God experiences the concept of duration and succession (He was not incarnated after the Second Coming or before creation) does not mean is locked into space. Time is more fundamental than space (see J.R. Lucas 'A Treatise on Time and Space').

 

[eveningsky339]

God is ontologically distinct from creation even if He experiences things sequentially like Scripture reveals. This shows that He is personal, not pantheistic (ignorant straw man argument).

You are begging the question, assuming what you are trying to prove.

Just because God experiences the concept of duration and succession (He was not incarnated after the Second Coming or before creation) does not mean is locked into space. Time is more fundamental than space (see J.R. Lucas 'A Treatise on Time and Space').

Show me Scripture that distinctly shows that God experiences time just like everyone else and we'll be off to a good start.

 

[godrulz]

Show me Scripture that distinctly shows that God experiences time just like everyone else and we'll be off to a good start.

Conversely, show me a Scripture that clearly teaches the philosophical assumption of timelessness or 'eternal now' (there are answers to the few proof texts used).

http://revivaltheology.gharvest.com/9_openness/eternity.html

God experiences duration, but there are some differences (He is from everlasting to everlasting whereas we had a beginning; He is not limited to one location and can do more than one thing at once in a given interval of time; He does not die limiting His activity on earth vs us, etc.).

Genesis to Revelation shows God has a history (His Story). It occurs with a sense of temporality and succession (endless time vs timelessness).

Ps. 90:2 (before is a tensed expression; everlasting to everlasting is duration, not timelessness).

Rev. 1:4 tensed expressions used of God (take at face value; He distinguishes and experiences past/present/future with not hint of eternal now simultaneity/timelessness).

Ps. 102:27 He is full of years vs absence of years; His days have no end vs no days in His existence.

Jesus is God. He did not cease to be God just because He experienced 4 A.D. before 20 A.D., Monday after Sunday, etc.

Lest you be prematurely dogmatic without understanding the issues, consider Wolterstorff's crebible view:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Gregory-E-Ganssle/dp/0830815511

 

[Lighthouse]

Isa 44:27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

Are you familiar with how Cyrus besieged the city? Diverting the Euphrates?

Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
Isa 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

God was talking to Cyrus, before he was ever conceived, before his grandpa was conceived. He called him by name. How is this not a prophecy?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness:

Seems we had a conversation about darkness being a created thing...here is proof out of God's own mouth. This is a total side note, but thought you would find it interesting. I did.

All I see is God talking to a guy who existed at the time. I see nothing to indicate that He was referring to someone not yet born.

We've been over this. Two precise atomic clocks were used for the experiment. One was placed in a hypersonic jet... wait, why should I hash this all out again? Use the search button.

All you proved was that clocks are effected by gravity. Not that time is.

The Bible disproves the theory which fuels our successful space program? That makes as much sense as Darth Vader eating seaweed on the a beach in Cancun. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate a pantheistic God tied to Time, His very own Creation.

Prove that time is created, from Scripture.

And what theory fuels our space program?

Time is part of the fabric of space. God is outside the fabric of space.

You have absolutely no Scripture to back that up. Nor do you have scientific proof.

Show me Scripture that distinctly shows that God experiences time just like everyone else and we'll be off to a good start.

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
-Rev 8:1

 

[godrulz]

Cyrus is a legit objection to Open Theism since it involves foreknowledge relating to free will. The prophecy was years before his birth and specific. It is not parallel to Messianic prophecies or Judas fulfilling OT passages by way of illustration, not predictive prophecy.

The answer may include exceptional overriding of free will, but it does not mean our critics can extrapolate that as a principle for EDF of all future free choices (contrary to most Scripture and logic).

If God can make a rooster crow, donkey talk, ensure John the Baptist/Jesus were named as predicted, He can exercise exceptional influence to ensure that Cyrus will be named as predicted and do the things said of him. It is still not proof of EDF or a denial of free will in general (which is finite at the best of times).

 

[themuzicman]

Cyrus is a legit objection to Open Theism since it involves foreknowledge relating to free will. The prophecy was years before his birth and specific. It is not parallel to Messianic prophecies or Judas fulfilling OT passages by way of illustration, not predictive prophecy.

The answer may include exceptional overriding of free will, but it does not mean our critics can extrapolate that as a principle for EDF of all future free choices (contrary to most Scripture and logic).

If God can make a rooster crow, donkey talk, ensure John the Baptist/Jesus were named as predicted, He can exercise exceptional influence to ensure that Cyrus will be named as predicted and do the things said of him. It is still not proof of EDF or a denial of free will in general (which is finite at the best of times).

Do you suppose an Angel could appear to be a representative of whatever deity the parents worshiped, and command them to name the child Cyrus? No, we don't have a record of that, but there are a myriad of ways God could have this child named 'Cyrus' without EDF.

Muz

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Cyrus is a legit objection to Open Theism since it involves foreknowledge relating to free will. The prophecy was years before his birth and specific. It is not parallel to Messianic prophecies or Judas fulfilling OT passages by way of illustration, not predictive prophecy.

:thumb: I am out of rep points for now, so this will have to suffice.

Talk amongst yourselves. :think: