Calvinism, Arminianism, and Open theism

[Choleric]

Uh... that isn't an example of ad verecundiam.

The future is either completely settled or it isn't. Can you think of another possibility?

God knows the future (foreknowledge). Man is still living and acting as a free will agent determining their own future... God knows all outcomes. Those outcomes are determined by the free will decisions of us.

FYI-Mormons would say...God is either God the Father or Jesus is God, He can't be both. Simply because it is difficult to understand does not mean it is not possible for God.:king:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God knows the future (foreknowledge). Man is still living and acting as a free will agent determining their own future... God knows all outcomes. Those outcomes are determined by the free will decisions of us.

:sigh:

And we wonder why non-believers think Christians are goofy. :doh:

FYI-Mormons would say...God is either God the Father or Jesus is God, He can't be both. Simply because it is difficult to understand does not mean it is not possible for God.:king:

That is a terrible example.

There isn't anything illogical about a triune God. Difficult to fully understand possibly, but not illogical.

However...

There is something illogical about the future being both completely settled and being NOT completely settled. It has to be one or the other it cannot be both.

Furthermore... the Bible proves otherwise which is even more important.

 

[tetelestai]

Uh... that isn't an example of ad verecundiam.

Maybe it isn't. If you would have said "Tiger Woods says it's either settled, or it's not" that would be a better example. So, since you are the owner of the site, what would be the logical falllacy term that means: - "what the owner of Theologyonline says is not necessarily true"?

The future is either completely settled or it isn't.

We have to throw rationalism and epistemology out the window to understand that this is a false statement. Therefore, open the window.

That is a terrible example.

There isn't anything illogical about a triune God. Difficult to fully understand possibly, but not illogical.

Actually I think the Trinity is a good analogy. It is a concept that is hard to understand just like time, eternity, and God’s attributes.

Why can’t I make the statement “God’s future is settled, and ours is both settled and unsettled”? This statement is no more false than “it is either settled or it is not, but can’t be both”

I know that there will be a rapture. I know that there will be a tribulation period. I know that there will be a second coming of Christ. I know that there will be a millennial period with Christ as Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. I know there will be a Great White Throne Judgment. I know that believers will spend eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don’t know who will win the Stanley Cup this year. I don’t know who will be President next year. I don’t know when the rapture will occur. I don’t know when I will die.

So, I know a lot of settled things about the future, and I don’t know a lot of unsettled things about the future, but God knows everything about the future.

This is not rational or empirical, but I know it is true because of Faith.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

tet,

Perhaps some of the confusion arises from trying to distinguish between God's future and ours. When Knight asks if the future is settled or not, he means the absolute and big picture future, which when looked on from the even more distant future will be called the past.

Maybe an example will help. Does God know everything that will happen exactly 35 years from now? And is there any way that what he knows can not come to pass at that time?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I know that there will be a rapture. I know that there will be a tribulation period.

Let me ask you something....

When God told Nineveh... (through Jonah)

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

And the people of Nineveh "believed God". Suppose you and I were Ninevites and suppose that prophecy had just been given and we were having this same conversation.

We might hear you saying.... "I know Nineveh will be overthrown". And we might hear me saying... "Hmmmm, I don't know, if we all repent, God might relent."

Which one of us have been right and which one of would have been wrong? The truth is the future isn't settled in advance. God can bring things to pass if He so chooses, but it's His choice. God isn't held hostage by His own foreknowledge.

God says there is room for repentance in ALL MEN, if you believe that to be true then the future cannot be entirely settled.

After all, if God desires that ALL MEN come to Him and if God says all men have room for repentance there must be the hypothetical possibility that all men could repent and come to Him (not that it will happen, only that it's possible that it could happen).

I don’t know who will win the Stanley Cup this year.

I know who it isn't gonna be.

I don’t know who will be President next year. I don’t know when the rapture will occur. I don’t know when I will die.

So, I know a lot of settled things about the future, and I don’t know a lot of unsettled things about the future, but God knows everything about the future.

Again, God might say.... I am going to such and such at this time (essentially settling that part of the future). Yet when God settles the future in that way it is merely Him doing what He pleases, that is altogether different than the future being entirely settled because God is outside of time and "peeking" into the future (which is utterly unbiblical).

Think of it this way....
I might say, "I will cut my lawn tomorrow at 3PM" and therefore I have settled a part of the future without knowing the future. Now something might happen that prevents me from fulfilling my plan. Yet for God the only thing that will prevent Him from fulfilling His plan... is Himself! And God makes it very clear what some of the reasons are that might compel Him to alter His plan....

Jeremiah 18:7 “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

​

If the above verse is true the future CANNOT be entirely settled in advance. The above verse is a rock solid proof that God is able to react to His creation and interact with His creation within time in an unsettled future.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Calvinism: Logical yet not biblical
Arminianism: Illogical and not biblical
Open Theism: Logical and biblical

Calvinism: Logical yet not and biblical
Arminianism: Illogical and not occasionally biblical
Open Theism: Illogical and biblical *heretical

*see also Holman's Apologetics Study Bible for details (godrulz can even "search inside" for details since he never reads the full content of any book.)
​

 

[tetelestai]

Open Theism gives proper biblical meaning to the word omniscience, and Open Theism accurately describes God's attributes that are actually in the Bible (not the made up ones that theologians inevent).

If anyone thinks they can explain what the omniscience of God is, or any other attribute of God, in my opinion they are a fool.

Think you can? How about omnipresence? Can you explain the omnipresence of God? If so, here is a question:

God hears us immediately (Isa. 65:24). But, let’s consider the distance to the throne room of God. The sun is about 93,000,000 miles from the earth (eight thousand times as far away as the United States is from China). The next closest star is much farther away than that. Light travels 186,000 miles a second, or six trillion miles a year. Light from the sun reaches us in eight minutes, but it takes light from the nearest star (Proxima Centauri) more than four years to reach us. If Sirius (the Dog Star) should explode tonight, it would be nearly nine years before we saw the explosion.

We know that the closest cluster of stars visible to the naked eye is Andromeda Nebula. Remember, one light year equals six trillion miles. The light we see from Andromeda Nebula left there one million, six hundred thousand light years ago. Not miles — light years. If there are two Heavens, and then the throne room of God is in the third Heaven, then the throne room of God is probably at least a trillion light years away if the second Heaven is the same size as the first Heaven. This would mean the speed of your prayer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles a second.

The fastest airplane is the X-43 which can go 7,000 mph. This plane would take around 857,142,857,200,000,000,000 years to get there. The fastest spacecraft is the New Horizons Probe which can do 35,800 mph. This spacecraft would take around 167,597,765,400,000,000,000 years to get there.

Please explain how a prayer travels 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles to the throne room of God in less than one second?

 

[GuySmiley]

If anyone thinks they can explain what the omniscience of God is, or any other attribute of God, in my opinion they are a fool.

Think you can? How about omnipresence? Can you explain the omnipresence of God? If so, here is a question:

God hears us immediately (Isa. 65:24). But, let’s consider the distance to the throne room of God. The sun is about 93,000,000 miles from the earth (eight thousand times as far away as the United States is from China). The next closest star is much farther away than that. Light travels 186,000 miles a second, or six trillion miles a year. Light from the sun reaches us in eight minutes, but it takes light from the nearest star (Proxima Centauri) more than four years to reach us. If Sirius (the Dog Star) should explode tonight, it would be nearly nine years before we saw the explosion.

We know that the closest cluster of stars visible to the naked eye is Andromeda Nebula. Remember, one light year equals six trillion miles. The light we see from Andromeda Nebula left there one million, six hundred thousand light years ago. Not miles — light years. If there are two Heavens, and then the throne room of God is in the third Heaven, then the throne room of God is probably at least a trillion light years away if the second Heaven is the same size as the first Heaven. This would mean the speed of your prayer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles a second.

The fastest airplane is the X-43 which can go 7,000 mph. This plane would take around 857,142,857,200,000,000,000 years to get there. The fastest spacecraft is the New Horizons Probe which can do 35,800 mph. This spacecraft would take around 167,597,765,400,000,000,000 years to get there.

Please explain how a prayer travels 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles to the throne room of God in less than one second?

If anyone thinks the throne room of God has a physical location in this universe, in my opinion they are a fool.

 

[tetelestai]

If anyone thinks the throne room of God has a physical location in this universe, in my opinion they are a fool.

If so, can you explain Revelation 4?

 

[Lighthouse]

God knows the future (foreknowledge). Man is still living and acting as a free will agent determining their own future... God knows all outcomes. Those outcomes are determined by the free will decisions of us.

Does God have free will?

FYI-Mormons would say...God is either God the Father or Jesus is God, He can't be both. Simply because it is difficult to understand does not mean it is not possible for God.:king:

Try to pay attention...
God is either a Trinity, or He is not. He can't be both.

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge, then the future is settled in the eyes of God. It cannot be unsettled in His eyes, if it is settled in His eyes. What we perceive means nothing, if it is settled in the eyes of God.

Calvinism: Logical yet not and biblical
Arminianism: Illogical and not occasionally biblical
Open Theism: Illogical and biblical *heretical

*see also Holman's Apologetics Study Bible for details (godrulz can even "search inside" for details since he never reads the full content of any book.)
​

:troll:

 

[GuySmiley]

If so, can you explain Revelation 4?

verse 2 "Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, "

Italics are mine.

 

[Choleric]

That is a terrible example.

With all due respect o' creator of TOL, this is a great example.

There isn't anything illogical about a triune God. Difficult to fully understand possibly, but not illogical.

It is completely illogical. There is nothing in our known world or our experience that would in any way describe or illustrate the triune nature of the Godhead. The fact that it is illogical is the main reason why we have: Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses, Islam. They all claim we are polytheists by talking about the Trinity...they have a very difficult time believing it, precisely because it is illogical.

Those of us who simply read our Bible and believe what it says do not have any problem with it, but not because we can understand it logically, but simply because we believe what the Bible says and don't spend our time trying to make it 'fit' with our logic.

Making things that are hard to understand 'fit' with our logic is precisely why we are dealing with Open Theism. (as a side note, I have not totally written OT off, I am dredging through the Battle Royale X debate, but as it stands now, I see no compelling evidence to support it.)

We have the extreme opposite of AMR's election. Calvin's people say the future is settled, because it is clear from the Bible that God knows the future. Open Theists say it is open because we have free will.

Calvinists try to explain away all the aspects of Scripture that show free will, consequences for our actions, and Christ's worldwide/for all men atonement.

OT's try to explain away every time it is clear from Scripture that God knew that something was going to happen and the precise way that it was going to happen.

We have two camps trying to make the words of the Bible make sense logically. We are constantly seeing people try to understand the Bible, when our only responsibility is to believe it. My position may not be logical, but it is entirely Biblical, even if our human, finite minds cannot understand it...

Furthermore... the Bible proves otherwise which is even more important.

I am still waiting for this evidence. Can you start by explaining how God knew Cyrus was going to rebuild His city before Cyrus was even born?

 

[tetelestai]

Choleric said:

We have the extreme opposite of AMR's election. Calvin's people say the future is settled, because it is clear from the Bible that God knows the future. Open Theists say it is open because we have free will.

Calvinists try to explain away all the aspects of Scripture that show free will, consequences for our actions, and Christ's worldwide/for all men atonement.

OT's try to explain away every time it is clear from Scripture that God knew that something was going to happen and the precise way that it was going to happen.

We have two camps trying to make the words of the Bible make sense logically. We are constantly seeing people try to understand the Bible, when our only responsibility is to believe it. My position may not be logical, but it is entirely Biblical, even if our human, finite minds cannot understand it...

Exactly!!:up:

Faith supersedes rationalism, epistemology, philosophy, and all other finite beliefs.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Try to pay attention...
God is either a Trinity, or He is not. He can't be both.

Excellent response, I wish I had thought of that.

Lighthouse your response completely explains the difference in 13 words. Well done. :thumb:

 

[tetelestai]

Lighthouse said:

Try to pay attention...
God is either a Trinity, or He is not. He can't be both.

Actually He is both. God is one God, and God is three persons.

You are proving our point.

Try this one: Jesus is man / Jesus is God. According to you, He can't be both. So which one is He? How was He both at the same time?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Lighthouse said:


Actually He is both. God is one God, and God is three persons.

You are proving our point.

Try this one: Jesus is man / Jesus is God. According to you, He can't be both. So which one is He? How was He both at the same time?

That is silly.

You say... "Actually He is both. God is one God, and God is three persons.
" Is God ever NOT a triune God??? :think:

Uh.... BZzzzzzzz wrong, try again next time. Thanks for playing.

A man can be both a king and a man simultaneously. I can be a father and a son (at the same time!).

But here is what I cannot be.... I can't be a man who is a father and a man who is NOT a father at the same time.

God cannot be BOTH a triune God NOT a triune God at the same time. It would be a bit like asking... can God exist and NOT exist at the same time? Can God be good while simultaneously being evil? Those things are contradictions that can be ruled out based on their absurdities.

Likewise the future cannot be both completely settled and also be NOT completely settled.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That is silly.

You say... "Actually He is both. God is one God, and God is three persons.
" Is God ever NOT a triune God??? :think:

Uh.... BZzzzzzzz wrong, try again next time. Thanks for playing.

A man can be both a king and a man simultaneously. I can be a father and a son (at the same time!).

But here is what I cannot be.... I can't be a man who is a father and a man who is NOT a father at the same time.

God cannot be BOTH a triune God NOT a triune God at the same time. It would be a bit like asking... can God exist and NOT exist at the same time? Can God be good while simultaneously being evil? Those things are contradictions that can be ruled out based on their absurdities.

Likewise the future cannot be both completely settled and also be NOT completely settled.

How is God the creator (God) and the creature (man) at same time?

 

[Lighthouse]

Excellent response, I wish I had thought of that.

Lighthouse your response completely explains the difference in 13 words. Well done. :thumb:

Thank you.

Lighthouse said:


Actually He is both. God is one God, and God is three persons.

You are proving our point.

Try this one: Jesus is man / Jesus is God. According to you, He can't be both. So which one is He? How was He both at the same time?

Moron.

He cannot be God, and not God, at the same time. That doesn't mean He can't be two things at once. It only means He can't be two contradictory things at once.:dunce::duh:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How is God the creator (God) and the creature (man) at same time?

Because He manifests Himself in three persons.

There isn't anything illogical about that is there? Can you come up with something?

It might be beyond our capability to fully understand but so is gravity, I doubt you think gravity is illogical even though we don't fully understand it.

God created matter and energy out of nothing. That isn't illogical.

Our futures being settled, and un-settled, simultaneously is illogical.

 

[Choleric]

Can any OTer explain to me how God knew Cyrus by name and that he would rebuild His city before Cyrus was even born(actually 200 years earlier)?