BRXII Battle talk

[Stripe]

Stipe: Would you please explain this verse - and how ET still has a place in God's will....:

Ephesians 1

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You like verses ten and eleven don't you?

He is the guarantee of our inheritance for the glory of God. What happens to those who reject God Red?

Goodnight.

 

[red77]

You're not being honest. If you consider God capable of doing such a thing, why does he leave us here to rot? Does he hate us? Why are we made to suffer through 84 years of life on Earth when it is in his power to summon us directly to paradise. This should be very easy to answer Red. stipeQ1: Why doesn't God summon us directly to heaven?

do you consider being here left to rot? Is life on earth that bad? If it should be very easy to answer then it should be very easy to answer for you as well in honesty, I do not know why God created the world but I dont think it was for us to rot if he loved us so much to send his son, God knows we all suffer and have bad times - incredibly bad times - but if you think its total suffering on earth then how can you believe in ET? at least here there is still joy/laughter and happiness also......in the doctrine of ET there is absolutely nothing but hideously indescribable torment that doesnt end!
And of course I believe that God is capable of accomplishing his will, but it is God's will that we are here on this planet for anything up to something like 100 years, I dont make the rules.....

I will rejoice over one person saved. If God chose to summon us all directly to heaven I'd have no choice but to be happy about it.

You would have a choice in the here and now, would you prefer ET to be true or Universal salvation? Yes....its a feelings based question but then most of this topic is so please answer

So those found righteous go to heaven, where do those not found righteous go?

I said God judges righteously, I cannot answer as to how God deals this out in pure honesty for each individual, I do not see it as being black and white even for Christians who give their account......

 

[red77]

Ephesians 1

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You like verses ten and eleven don't you?

He is the guarantee of our inheritance for the glory of God. What happens to those who reject God Red?

Goodnight.

You havent answered verses 10 and 11, they arent out of context unless you'd like to explain why? Does God work all things out according to his will or not? None of the whole of the above passage negates this unless I'm missing something? Please answer....

Those who 'reject' God will still be reconciled to God, unless I'm mistaken we 'all' rejected God if it was a case of unbelief but God wills all man to know the truth, for some - through reasons which God will judge by - it takes longer than others, to be honest i am absolutrely tired and this may not be the best reply as I've been up for hours.....

Goodnight too!

 

[PKevman]

Oh those evil translators!

I guess all of the following versions are translated by Greek scholars who don't know their Greek?

Matthew 25:41

(NKJV) Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(NASB) Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
(KJV) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(CEV) Matthew 25:41 Then the king will say to those on his left, "Get away from me! You are under God's curse. Go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
(TEV) Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!
(RSV) Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
(GodsWord) Matthew 25:41 "Then the king will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels!"
(Holman NT) Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left, Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
(ASV) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:



Matthew 25:46

(NKJV) Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(NASB) Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(KJV) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(CEV) Matthew 25:46 Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."
(TEV) Matthew 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
(RSV) Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(GodsWord) Matthew 25:46 "These people will go away into eternal punishment, but those with God's approval will go into eternal life."
(Holman NT) Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(ASV) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

 

[Lighthouse]

some of these posts take a bit of time and effort, do you have anything to actually contribute?

Inu Yahsa doesn't post much.

 

[PKevman]

Oh those Evil Translators! (Part Two)

Still more of those evil translations that miss the "pure truth" of Universal Salvation:

Revelation 20:10
(NKJV) Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are.] And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(NASB) Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(KJV) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(CEV) Revelation 20:10 Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulphur. He will be there with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.
(TEV) Revelation 20:10 Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(RSV) Revelation 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(GodsWord) Revelation 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever."
(Holman NT) Revelation 20:10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(ASV) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:2
(NKJV) Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
(NASB) Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
(KJV) Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
(CEV) Daniel 12:2 Many of those who lie dead in the ground will rise from death. Some of them will be given eternal life, and others will receive nothing but eternal shame and disgrace.
(TEV) Daniel 12:2 Many of those who have already died will live again: some will enjoy eternal life, and some will suffer eternal disgrace.
(RSV) Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(GodsWord) Daniel 12:2 "Many sleeping in the ground will wake up. Some will wake up to live forever, but others will wake up to be ashamed and disgraced forever."

(ASV) Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


2 Thessalonians 1:9

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
(KJV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(CEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Their punishment will be eternal destruction, and they will be kept far from the presence of our Lord and his glorious strength.
(TEV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,
(RSV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
(GodsWord) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power."
(Holman NT) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength,
(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer punishment, [even] eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[Lighthouse]

Well i 'll leave it to God to judge each person's heart on this one, he'll know better than any of us....

True.

That doesnt explain how you believe the LOF to be either literal or figurative, you should have reasons one way or the other

I believe it to be literal, because the dead will have their physical bodies back, and they will feel the flame.

but why are you veering towards annihilationism? What is your reasoning for believing it presently? The pastor thinks perfect justice is eternal torment, why dont you agree?

I've already explained that.

how can I put this? If something is described as "will" be testified to then its the future tense, is that right? If the ransom was already paid at the cross then the word "will" would have no place in the verse, now can you explain why this is?

It was future tense when it was written. However, if you look into the literal translations, it says that the ransom was testified at the time He paid it.

"who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --"

-1 Timothy 2:6
​

of course I'm not, is God not capable of accomplishing his will without force? What makes you think that anyone once they're made aware of the truth would want to deny it?

Since He has given us free will, He would have to force us to do His will, if we have not chosen to do it.

And how do you know that God decrees that its too late? do you think the confession is 'forced'? On the one hand you think its wrong for God to force people to see the truth but not to make people confess? I think you're well aware that these verses are from the Bible, I dont always have time to quote each verse while on breaks at work.............!

You are an idiot. I do not think it is worng for God to show people the truth. I do think it's worng for Him to force a confession. As for the decree that it's too late, I believe that if you read Revelations 20-22, you will see what I mean.

 

[PKevman]

PLEASE SHOW WHERE IN THE BIBLE THOSE WHOSE NAMES ARE NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE GET THEIR NAME WRITTEN BACK INTO THE BOOK OF LIFE:

Revelation 20:15 says:

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27 says:

(NKJV) Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Get that Universalism? You must have your name written in the Lamb's Book of Life in order to get into Heaven. Where in the Bible does it show those who were cast into the Lake of Fire getting their names written BACK into the Book?

They do not exist. Universal Salvation as a Biblical doctrine does not exist either. It is the creation of men, and does not come from the mind of God which is found in the Word of God.

God bless!

 

[Lighthouse]

Written back, PK? Are they ever written there to begin with?

 

[red77]

Oh those evil translators!

I guess all of the following versions are translated by Greek scholars who don't know their Greek?

Matthew 25:41

(NKJV) Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
(NASB) Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
(KJV) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(CEV) Matthew 25:41 Then the king will say to those on his left, "Get away from me! You are under God's curse. Go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
(TEV) Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!
(RSV) Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
(GodsWord) Matthew 25:41 "Then the king will say to those on his left, 'Get away from me! God has cursed you! Go into everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels!"
(Holman NT) Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left, Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
(ASV) Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:



Matthew 25:46

(NKJV) Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(NASB) Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(KJV) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(CEV) Matthew 25:46 Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."
(TEV) Matthew 25:46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
(RSV) Matthew 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(GodsWord) Matthew 25:46 "These people will go away into eternal punishment, but those with God's approval will go into eternal life."
(Holman NT) Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(ASV) Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

pastor, can you get around to answering a couple of my last posts to you?

 

[red77]

Inu Yahsa doesn't post much.

when Inu Yahsa posts it isnt much either.....

 

[PKevman]

Written back, PK? Are they ever written there to begin with?

Technically, no. But the idea that Universalists have is obviously that their names are at a later time written into the Book of Life, so I guess the idea of my question is where does it show that the Book of Life will be re-opened and their names will be found? And the answer is of course that it doesn't. But they probably deny these verses in Revelation just as they do anything else in Revelation that disagrees with their theology.

I mean the Scripture is abundantly clear that having one's name in the Book of Life is required for entry into Heaven.

 

[Ecumenicist]

PK,

None of the translations you provide are inconsistant with a view of God as God's Self in fact being
the consuming, purging, purifying "lake of fire."

Thus, according to Revelation, even Satan and his angels are reconciled unto God.

Dave Miller

 

[red77]

[

QUOTE=Lighthouse]True.

Cool

I believe it to be literal, because the dead will have their physical bodies back, and they will feel the flame

well if they have their physical bodies back then the burning would only last as long as it would take for the flames to consume the body, I can see why you veer towards annihaltionism except it still doesnt explain how 'death' is destroyed by this same fire........

I've already explained that.

Well....not really, you've not explained as to how the pastor is wrong or at least possibly wrong and that your take is more right than his, why do you disagree with the pastor or those who believe in ET and why do you think that you are right regarding "justice"? Please give an answer

It was future tense when it was written. However, if you look into the literal translations, it says that the ransom was testified at the time He paid it.

"who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --"

-1 Timothy 2:6
​

Ok - which translation is this?

Since He has given us free will, He would have to force us to do His will, if we have not chosen to do it.

Geez, you really do want to limit God to mans free will, if you're in a swamp and someone says to you they've got a rope would you say yes or no to them? I've heard this example from ET'ers so often but it rebounds back on them, who - once they know the truth would WANT to reject it?

You are an idiot. I do not think it is worng for God to show people the truth. I do think it's worng for Him to force a confession. As for the decree that it's too late, I believe that if you read Revelations 20-22, you will see what I mean.

And regrettably after a session of you behaving reasonably you resort to the tried and tested ad hominem....but never mind, I dont believe its a forced confession anyway but given willingly, try reading Rev 5:13 and see what I mean

 

[red77]

Rev 20



John 3



Redfin 6?

“We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I Tim. 4:10.

Nineveh 0?

 

[PKevman]

PK,

None of the translations you provide are inconsistant with a view of God as God's Self in fact being
the consuming, purging, purifying "lake of fire."

Thus, according to Revelation, even Satan and his angels are reconciled unto God.

Dave Miller

There it is. Universalism explained. God is the lake of fire? At least Dave has the courage to speak up. I thought Stephen was hinting to this in the Battle Royale, but my question was never answered.

Logos&Red: Do you concur with Dave Miller's statement here? That God is the Lake of Fire?

 

[Nineveh]

“We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I Tim. 4:10.

Please don't make me regret replying to you again.

A Good Servant of Jesus Christ

If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ...He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son = God, who is the Savior of all men

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already = especially of those who believe

Especially: To an extent or degree deserving of special emphasis; particularly.

What makes those who believe in Christ worthy to be pointed out by Paul for special emphasis about salvation? Because those who believe on Christ are those who are saved. Is Christ the Savior of those who do not believe? YES! Are they saved? NO! Why? "..if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." They do not accept or believe in Christ. Just like John says.

I know... I know... when they really learn the truth of the matter... etc etc...

Let me head you off here and save you the keystrokes.

Firstly, Christ give us a clue: "Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Secondly, Paul says we are without excuse. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..."

Ok, now we see once again that Jesus, John and Paul all agree. If you really loath the idea of hell, might I suggest that you stop comforting sinners in their sin and start telling folks about "Moses and the prophets" aka the Law, that they are condemend without Christ and share with them the joy of the work Christ has done for them.

 

[Ecumenicist]

There it is. Universalism explained. God is the lake of fire? At least Dave has the courage to speak up. I thought Stephen was hinting to this in the Battle Royale, but my question was never answered.

Logos&Red: Do you concur with Dave Miller's statement here? That God is the Lake of Fire?

God was the Pillar of Fire in the desert. Do you deny that?

 

[Ecumenicist]

And, PK, by the way, you never answered my challenge. Show me the logical, theological,
scriptural inconsistancy in this view...

 

[PKevman]

And, PK, by the way, you never answered my challenge. Show me the logical, theological,
scriptural inconsistancy in this view...

I think it is so ridiculous that I don't know if it is worth spending time. I can't believe people actually believe that God is the Lake of Fire. Sure I have read about it and heard it, but I still cannot believe that people's dogmatic refusal to admit the unBiblical aspects of their doctrine leads them to make ridiculous applications such as this.

But OK. I will respond.

Did God create Himself Dave Miller? Did God create Himself for the punishment of the devil and his angels?