BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Of course they are. While the first death is rather easy, you totally fail to explain the second death.

No. I don't. They are dead..they raise from out of death, they are sent to a second death. That makes two times they die.

As testified to in the story of the witch of Endor and the separation in "the grave" of hell/Abraham's Bosom.

I don't trust the witch of Endor. But, I'll indulge you.
People die. Their spirit might survive...but it is always waiting for the resurrection of the body. As a disembodied spirit it is not truely "alive".
The wirch of endore was not contacting a resurrected soul.
Both "hell" and Abraham's bosom refers to the intermediate state between death and resurrection. It is not valid to the argument of eternal torment because it definitely ends in resurrection and is BEFORE judgement...which happens at the resurrection and before second death.

Um :think: Nope. That's the lie universalism spreads. The Bible indicates we all die once, then we are judged. It's the lake that is the second death. Unless one repents and accepts Christ, thereby being buried with Christ, they will suffer the second death. For you to tack on another resurrection past what the Bible proclaims is a false hope on your part.

Umm, nope. They are still there...outside the new Jerusalem, in the last chapter of Revelation. They are not burning, nor are they cursing. They are invited to wash their robes clean so they can enter through the gates into the City and will not , therefore, be shut out. They are invited to drink of the water of life without payment...whosever will. This is a very different picture than what eternal torment paints.

You have placed your faith in a false hope. Your faith should be in the One who can save people out of the lake not in your extraBiblical ideas.

Can He save people out of the Lake? Or only save people before they get there?

Except if we take a look at that parable Jesus tells us, the rich man was repentant, but that didn't get him any favors. He wasn't even granted the opportunity to go warn his own kin away from the place he was. He was told, " ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

He had to face his chastisment, he had a price to pay...there is NOTHING that says that price was eternal. Besides...Hades is BEFORE resurrection and also BEFORE Judgement that happens at the resurrection.

What's sad logos, is One was raised from the dead, it was He Himself that warns us away from the lake. Yet, you still do not believe.

What?

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel I'm not trying to cast doubt on what the scriptures clearly state. I'm not trying to erase the truth.

That's your opinion. I'm persuaded otherwise.

...most people that were Christians in the first centuries of Christianity never heard of an endless torment, and the first systematic Christian theology contained Universal Salvation and punishments that don't undo Gods ability to save all men...which no one refuted formally for over 200 years.

I'm not buying that.

You still cling to eternal torment and utilize "proof texting" to support it.

No, I don't. I found the understanding I have through study, prayer and meditation; not subscribing to viewpoints of people who claim to be scholarly.

I don't see any real difference in your approach when it is compared to mine.

I haven't sought out teachers, who are of the opinion that I'm trying to promote or encourage. I haven't heaped them up to scratch my itcy ears. I haven't professed myself to be wise.

When the Bible says that Christ is "the savior of all men, especially the believers." I believe what it says.

That's a good example of proof-texting.

If what you are saying is true, Paul should've said Christ is the savior of believers, and ONLY believers.

If Paul isn't following Christ, I'm not following him. Christ taught us about hell, and I believe in Christ. Paul did too.

Eternal conscious torment is not in scripture in the Hebrew or the Greek.

It most certainly is. Sound doctrine isn't ever going away. Get used to it.

 

[logos_x]

There you go.
Like I said earlier...it's pointless to continue.

 

[Nineveh]

No. I don't. They are dead..they raise from out of death, they are sent to a second death. That makes two times they die.

John tells us those who do not believe are condemned already.

I don't trust the witch of Endor. But, I'll indulge you.
People die. Their spirit might survive...

Odd, you accuse me of making this very claim.

but it is always waiting for the resurrection of the body. As a disembodied spirit it is not truely "alive".
The wirch of endore was not contacting a resurrected soul.

According to who? You? Samuel was displeased he had been disturbed.

Both "hell" and Abraham's bosom refers to the intermediate state between death and resurrection.

We've already established this. But Abraham's bosom is not longer there.

It is not valid to the argument of eternal torment because it definately ends in resurrection and is BEFORE judgement...which happens at the resurrection and before second death.

My reply was to the soul living on. Recap: You said, "In your view something of us lives, on its own, and that lasts forever, regardless of ones relationship with the Lord." Those were two proofs that the soul does indeed live on. Either with God or apart from God (the second death).

Umm, nope. They are still there...outside the new Jerusalem, in the last chapter of Revelation. They are not burning, nor are they cursing.

"...weeping and gnashing of teeth". They aren't happy outside of God's realm.

They are invited to wash their robes clean so they can enter through the gates into the City and will not , therefore, be shut out. They are invited to drink of the water of life without payment...whosever will. This is a very different picture than what eternal torment paints.

I think you just jumped from one place to another. The way you tried to mesh those two events don't add up. The Jews were invited to the wedding feast, they are the Bride.

Can He save people out of the Lake? Or only save people before they get there?

Jesus tells us we don't want to go there. He speaks of the place in terms of forever (I know you don't believe the Greeks had the concept of forever but we've already been down that road). It's ok if God wants to move from one age (now) to another (the millennial Kingdom) and then move on after that (forever). Those that do not want to be with God can be. God doesn't have to keep the door open forever. Nor does His Word make such claims.

He had to face his chastisment, he had a price to pay...there is NOTHING that says that price was eternal. Besides...Hades is BEFORE resurrection and also BEFORE Judgement that happens at the resurrection.

And even still, you have to add to the Word to exonerate the rich man. Abraham offered him no such cruel false hope.

There is a time in every person's life they come to the age in which they become responsible for thier own actions. It is at that time the second death lays claim to our souls. This is our destination from that point on. There is only One Way to avoid the second death, and that is accepting Christ's atonement, being buried with Him, becoming dead to the Law that convicts us.

 

[logos_x]

John tells us those who do not believe are condemned already.




Odd, you accuse me of making this very claim.



According to who? You? Samuel was displeased he had been disturbed.



We've already established this. But Abraham's bosom is not longer there.



My reply was to the soul living on. Recap: You said, "In your view something of us lives, on its own, and that lasts forever, regardless of ones relationship with the Lord." Those were two proofs that the soul does indeed live on. Either with God or apart from God (the second death).



"...weeping and gnashing of teeth". They aren't happy outside of God's realm.



I think you just jumped from one place to another. The way you tried to mesh those two events don't add up. The Jews were invited to the wedding feast, they are the Bride.




Jesus tells us we don't want to go there. He speaks of the place in terms of forever (I know you don't believe the Greeks had the concept of forever but we've already been down that road). It's ok if God wants to move from one age (now) to another (the millennial Kingdom) and then move on after that (forever). Those that do not want to be with God can be. God doesn't have to keep the door open forever. Nor does His Word make such claims.



And even still, you have to add to the Word to exonerate the rich man. Abraham offered him no such cruel false hope.

There is a time in every person's life they come to the age in which they become responsible for thier own actions. It is at that time the second death lays claim to our souls. This is our destination from that point on. There is only One Way to avoid the second death, and that is accepting Christ's atonement, being buried with Him, becoming dead to the Law that convicts us.

Nineveh, Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. I don't believe death is the end. I believe in judgements, even in condemnation...just not eternal torment....and that they have purpose in line with Jesus being the Savior of all men.

I don't believe in an eternal Hell.

For this I've argued, and I constantly get responses like yours for my efforts...with all kinds of continual accusations and nonsensical arguments that Hell HAS to be eternal or it means nothing.

I should think that a Hell that is not eternal but actually accomplishes something besides pain for all eternity would be good news. Fascinating that it isn't for so many Christians...and ONLY Christians.

So...Nineveh, If scriptural arguments, historical arguments, appeals to our conscience and sense of justice, the character of God as well as His attributes and abilities, even the teachings of Jesus to love our enemies and overcome evil with good...and more, cannot persuade people that eternal torment is a lie, what would?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Nineveh, Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. I don't believe death is the end. I believe in judgements, even in condemnation...just not eternal torment....and that they have purpose in line with Jesus being the Savior of all men.

I don't believe in an eternal Hell.

For this I've argued, and I constantly get responses like yours for my efforts...with all kinds of continual accusations and nonsensical arguments that Hell HAS to be eternal or it means nothing.

I should think that a Hell that is not eternal but actually accomplishes something besides pain for all eternity would be good news. Fascinating that it isn't for so many Christians...and ONLY Christians.

So...Nineveh, If scriptural arguments, historical arguments, appeals to our conscience and sense of justice, the character of God as well as His attributes and abilities, even the teachings of Jesus to love our enemies and overcome evil with good...and more, cannot persuade people that eternal torment is a lie, what would?

It would be much more convincing if Jesus had addressed this issue so directly in His own words. Church history means nothing compared to what Jesus said. Look at what the Pharisees did. God gave Moses the law. The Pharisees interpreted it based on history. Jesus took them to task for interpreting the law.

 

[Aimiel]

So...Nineveh, If scriptural arguments, historical arguments, appeals to our conscience and sense of justice, the character of God as well as His attributes and abilities, even the teachings of Jesus to love our enemies and overcome evil with good...and more, cannot persuade people that eternal torment is a lie, what would?

First, it would have to be a lie (it isn't); second it would have to be stated by The Lord, Who, in point of fact described the Lake of Fire and even told us that the smoke of the humans being tormented there would ascend for ever (ages of ages, according to your re-defining of terminolgy that has been widely accepted by orthodox and common man alike for centuries); and, third, you would have to re-write much of Scripture, so much that it would be an entirely different book, but since it reads the way it does, you're stuck with it.

 

[logos_x]

First, it would have to be a lie (it isn't);

Yes it is.

second it would have to be stated by The Lord, Who, in point of fact described the Lake of Fire and even told us that the smoke of the humans being tormented there would ascend for ever (ages of ages, according to your re-defining of terminolgy that has been widely accepted by orthodox and common man alike for centuries);

"Forever and ever" is an absurd translation of the Greek aionas ton aionon, a translation which ignores both the plural of aion and the genitive case, "of the." (As for the Greek connective kai—"and"—it is nowhere in this passage)

and, third, you would have to re-write much of Scripture, so much that it would be an entirely different book, but since it reads the way it does, you're stuck with it.

No, I wouldn't have to re-write scripture at all. You, however, would need to re-write much of your theology.

 

[logos_x]

It would be much more convincing if Jesus had addressed this issue so directly in His own words. Church history means nothing compared to what Jesus said. Look at what the Pharisees did. God gave Moses the law. The Pharisees interpreted it based on history. Jesus took them to task for interpreting the law.

Given that Jesus NEVER used a word that means "everlasting" when He spoke of judgments, what issue is there to address?

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men.

Jeus offers salvation to all men. "...those that do not believe are condemned already..."

I don't believe death is the end.

Which death? The "end" of what?

I believe in judgements, even in condemnation...

...you just don't believe people will be held accountable for actions that have eternal consequence.

So...Nineveh, If scriptural arguments, historical arguments, appeals to our conscience and sense of justice, the character of God as well as His attributes and abilities, even the teachings of Jesus to love our enemies and overcome evil with good...and more, cannot persuade people that eternal torment is a lie, what would?

Finding one shred of your "gospel" in the Bible would be a good start.

 

[logos_x]

Jeus offers salvation to all men. "...those that do not believe are condemned already..."

...and it is condemnation from which they are to be saved.

Which death? The "end" of what?

All death is not the end. Death is destroyed in the end.

...you just don't believe people will be held accountable for actions that have eternal consequence.

Ok.

Finding one shred of your "gospel" in the Bible would be a good start.

a good start would be for you to quit ignoring when I do.

 

[Nineveh]

...and it is condemnation from which they are to be saved.

False hope.

All death is not the end. Death is destroyed in the end.

Dodged question.

a good start would be for you to quit ignoring when I do.

Let's look at your evidence: an obscure Bible version that translates a word so esoterically you can make it mean whatever you want, and massive amounts of false hope built on things you wish the Bible said.

Sorry, logos, I'm going to have to take the Word for what it says, not what you add to it.

 

[logos_x]

...you just don't believe people will be held accountable for actions that have eternal consequence.

I believe the cross has eternal consequences, I believe grace is eternal, but wrath can be turned away. I believe that punishments are limited and in line with what is appropriate, and also in line with Jesus being the savior of all men.

Sin would have "eternal" consequences if it continues for all eternity. If one is saved, it does not continue.

Is death immutable?
Show scripturally where death has any victory whatsoever in the end.

And please...stop trying to delete the resurrection as a saving force.

 

[logos_x]

False hope.

...and with that assessment you say that Jesus CANNOT be the savior of all men.

Dodged question.

There was nothing to dodge.

Let's look at your evidence: an obscure Bible version that translates a word so esoterically you can make it mean whatever you want, and massive amounts of false hope built on things you wish the Bible said.

Sorry, logos, I'm going to have to take the Word for what it says, not what you add to it.

It is the doctrine of eternal torment that makes an endless aion out of judgements by adding to the scriptures...by adding a word that means "endless" along with aion or it's adjectives to FORCE it to be endless, while the word itself does not mean endless.

You can dismiss the evidence for this all you want, but by doing so you ignore the facts.

 

[dale]

First, it would have to be a lie (it isn't); second it would have to be stated by The Lord, Who, in point of fact described the Lake of Fire and even told us that the smoke of the humans being tormented there would ascend for ever (ages of ages, according to your re-defining of terminolgy that has been widely accepted by orthodox and common man alike for centuries); and, third, you would have to re-write much of Scripture, so much that it would be an entirely different book, but since it reads the way it does, you're stuck with it.

All according to YOUR plausibility structure. Is it possible you could be wrong, Aimiel? I realize you don't think you're wrong. I doubt anyone thinks they're wrong. That's why they believe whay they believe, because they think it's correct. I'm just asking if you believe there's even any chance that your understanding of the Scriptures is wrong?

 

[Aimiel]

Of course there is, and it happens more often than I care to admit, but I'm not about to abandon what The Lord has shown me of His Truth. Just because I don't represent His Word as well as some or because I might not be as eloquent at some doesn't mean that I don't have a hunger for The Lord and seek Him for counsel and wisdom. I'm not about to find others of like opinion and get them to give me things to say or ask that they help defend my 'position' or agenda, because I don't have one. I don't seek to have or do anything other than my Father's Will in this matter.

 

[Nineveh]

I believe ... I believe... I believe...

So?

Sin would have "eternal" consequences if it continues for all eternity. If one is saved, it does not continue.

It's not the sin that's eternal, it's the consequences of that sin that is eternal. If one is not saved, they get to spend their eternity with the consequences of their sin. "For the wages of sin is death," If one repents and accepts Christ, they gain life, "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Is death immutable?

You don't know the first thing about death, so please don't play like you do.

Show scripturally where death has any victory whatsoever in the end.

It doesn't, over those who have their victory in Christ. Was satan lying to Eve when he told her should wouldn't die?

And please...stop trying to delete the resurrection as a saving force.

Shame on you logos. When have I ever lied about the Gospel of Grace? We don't disagree that Christ is the Only Way. We disagree on what, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment..." means.

The lake is now the Age-During Waiting Room. Have you considered some entities may not ever repent? What then? Is God bound by your faith to always and forever have to deal with the vile? How long does your faith require God to be attentive to an unrepentant child molester?

Out of curiosity, what happened at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

...and with that assessment you say that Jesus CANNOT be the savior of all men.

Hardly. What I said was Christ offers salvation to everyone. John 3:18 says we have a choice.

 

[dale]

Of course there is, and it happens more often than I care to admit, but I'm not about to abandon what The Lord has shown me of His Truth. Just because I don't represent His Word as well as some or because I might not be as eloquent at some doesn't mean that I don't have a hunger for The Lord and seek Him for counsel and wisdom. I'm not about to find others of like opinion and get them to give me things to say or ask that they help defend my 'position' or agenda, because I don't have one. I don't seek to have or do anything other than my Father's Will in this matter.

Glad to hear it. I have to admit though, I'd have never known it by reading your responses. Anyway, glad to hear you admit you could be wrong.

 

[logos_x]

So?

So what?

It's not the sin that's eternal, it's the consequences of that sin that is eternal. If one is not saved, they get to spend their eternity with the consequences of their sin. "For the wages of sin is death," If one repents and accepts Christ, they gain life, "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Once again, the ONLY source of eternal life is Jesus Christ. We do not have it on our own...period. If the consequences of sin, which the Bible defines as death, is eternal you have a strong case for annihilation, unless Jesus resurrects people and give them eternal life so they live in torment forever...granting immortality to the wicked. Now, if you think Christ plans on doing that then I think you have misunderstood His purposes.

But, it doesn't matter what I think or believe does it? If it doesn't say what your view says it's wrong...and this because eternal torment turns the resurrection on its head.

You don't know the first thing about death, so please don't play like you do.

Really? Like I said before, even using YOUR definition of death as separation...when death is destroyed then separation is destroyed. All "consequences for sin"...death...will be DESTROYED. I think God can do that...you do not.

It doesn't, over those who have their victory in Christ. Was satan lying to Eve when he told her should wouldn't die?

Yes...Satan was lying. That is why we have graveyards...every one of which is proof that he lied.

Shame on you logos. When have I ever lied about the Gospel of Grace? We don't disagree that Christ is the Only Way. We disagree on what, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment..." means.

Shame on you for taking some translators, who were constrained to adhering to the doctrines of the church of England when they produced the King James Bible, as the producers of the truth concerning judgements.

The lake is now the Age-During Waiting Room. Have you considered some entities may not ever repent? What then? Is God bound by your faith to always and forever have to deal with the vile? How long does your faith require God to be attentive to an unrepentant child molester?

He will either save them or destroy them...that way he would not have to be attentive to an unrepentant child molester. You are saying they should continue forever under conditions of torture just to experience pain forever.
God is under no obligation to grant an eternal anything to that unrepentant child molester.

Out of curiosity, what happened at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

That would be what mankind is in before they are saved.

Hardly. What I said was Christ offers salvation to everyone. John 3:18 says we have a choice.

Yes..we have a choice...unless you die, then you don't...in your view.

 

[Nineveh]

Once again, the ONLY source of eternal life is Jesus Christ. We do not have it on our own...period. If the consequences of sin, which the Bible defines as death, is eternal you have a strong case for annihilation

Nope. The lake of fire is the second death.

unless Jesus resurrects people and give them eternal life so they live in torment forever...granting immortality to the wicked. Now, if you think Christ plans on doing that then I think you have misunderstood His purposes.

Their body is dead and thier soul is cut off from God. How much more dead can one get? If they repent, they can live with God, if they don't they will exist apart from Him. God doesn't offer any other alternatives, especially of the "forever" kind..

But, it doesn't matter what I think or believe does it?

To you, but not to the Truth.

If it doesn't say what your view says it's wrong...and this because eternal torment turns the resurrection on its head.

While in reality it places one's eternal state on a higher level of importance. In fact, right where Christ put it. So important in fact He warned us away from the lake, took an awful beating most of us couldn't even fathom and died a cruel and painful death to keep us out of it.

Really? Like I said before, even using YOUR definition of death as separation...when death is destroyed then separation is destroyed. All "consequences for sin"...death...will be DESTROYED. I think God can do that...you do not.

I think God takes care of the garbage and never promises to keep watch over the garbage heap for "age during".

Yes...Satan was lying. That is why we have graveyards...every one of which is proof that he lied.

"Show scripturally where death has any victory whatsoever in the end."

How could satan have lied if no one really dies?

Shame on you for taking some translators, who were constrained to adhering to the doctrines of the church of England when they produced the King James Bible, as the producers of the truth concerning judgements.

Nice try, but KJV is only on my list. I use the translations that make sense in English, I try to stay away from the translations that have an agenda and esoteric language.

He will either save them or destroy them...

For those who chose against Christ, the alternative is to be apart from God.

that way he would not have to be attentive to an unrepentant child molester.

Ok, so when you are god, you can change things around to suit you

You are saying they should continue forever under conditions of torture just to experience pain forever.

No, I'm saying they should repent or they face being away from God, and without God there is no hope, no salvation, no comfort and they will be with their unrepentant sin and regret which is their own torment.

God is under no obligation to grant an eternal anything to that unrepentant child molester.

Right. Even though your faith may need Him to.

That would be what mankind is in before they are saved.

Why such a weak non answer?

Yes..we have a choice...unless you die, then you don't...in your view.

And that is my view because anything beyond that needs more added to the Bible and that is not a good idea.