BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Nope. The lake of fire is the second death.

Yep

Their body is dead and thier soul is cut off from God. How much more dead can one get? If they repent, they can live with God, if they don't they will exist apart from Him. God doesn't offer any other alternatives, especially of the "forever" kind..

Nothing "exists" apart from God.

To you, but not to the Truth.

We are discussing what is true. I could make the same kind of statment concerning your doctrine.

While in reality it places one's eternal state on a higher level of importance. In fact, right where Christ put it. So important in fact He warned us away from the lake, took an awful beating most of us couldn't even fathom and died a cruel and painful death to keep us out of it.

Indeed...but His ability to save because of what He endured is not diminished at all by our death, any death whether the first one or the second one.

I think God takes care of the garbage and never promises to keep watch over the garbage heap for "age during".

Is the garbage the man..or the sin?
If a man is saved from sin...he is no longer "garbage"...in fact the man himself is not garbage at all but created to be the image of God. Remove sin, and that is what you shall have.

"Show scripturally where death has any victory whatsoever in the end."

How could satan have lied if no one really dies?

Everyone dies. Everyone will be saved. Can you never wrap your mind around that?

Nice try, but KJV is only on my list. I use the translations that make sense in English, I try to stay away from the translations that have an agenda and esoteric language.

Then you need an accurate translation...one that does not make an aion "endless" when the Bible in Hebrew and Greek never does.

For those who chose against Christ, the alternative is to be apart from God.

What sustains their existance? And what removes their ability to choose?

Ok, so when you are god, you can change things around to suit you

What is wrong with the God we have?
I wouldn't change anything.

No, I'm saying they should repent or they face being away from God, and without God there is no hope, no salvation, no comfort and they will be with their unrepentant sin and regret which is their own torment.

I know. I'm saying that condition does not last because God IS hope, IS salvation, and comfort..and the Lord of both the living and the dead (Romans 14:9) will not cast off forever. (Lam 3:31)

Right. Even though your faith may need Him to.

When God saves them they are not unrepentant and their sin is removed as far as the east is from the west...my faith does not compromise with sin and allow it to continue forever like yours does with an eternal hellhole that spews blasphemy and cursing forever.

Why such a weak non answer?

The "tree of knowledge of good and evil" does not grant life, Nineveh...so what is your point? It certainly does not grant eternal existance to dead people.

And that is my view because anything beyond that needs more added to the Bible and that is not a good idea.

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

 

[Redfin]

Ok, so when you are god, you can change things around to suit you

THAT is the weak non-answer!

:think:

 

[red77]

THAT is the weak non-answer!

:think:

:thumb:

 

[red77]

When God saves them they are not unrepentant and their sin is removed as far as the east is from the west...my faith does not compromise with sin and allow it to continue forever like yours does with an eternal hellhole that spews blasphemy and cursing forever.

Ironic really that those who 'hate' sin so much are happy enough to believe that it's never fully vanquished.....

 

[Nineveh]

Nothing "exists" apart from God.

Looks like those gnashing their teeth do. Looks as if the smoke of their torment does.

We are discussing what is true. I could make the same kind of statment concerning your doctrine.

Right. That's why "I believe" won't cut it.

Indeed...but His ability to save because of what He endured is not diminished at all by our death, any death whether the first one or the second one.

Yet you insist, even though you know God owes the rebellious nothing, He must wait "age-during" for everyone to repent. He must "age-during" baby sit the lake of fire waitng patiently .... forever being witness to the unrepentant.... just in case...

Is the garbage the man..or the sin?

It's the man's name that is missing from the Book of Life of the Lamb.

If a man is saved from sin...he is no longer "garbage"...in fact the man himself is not garbage at all but created to be the image of God. Remove sin, and that is what you shall have.

In Christ. Thing is not everyone wants to be In Christ.

Everyone dies.

True.

Everyone will be saved.

False.

Can you never wrap your mind around that?

Nope. Neither did Jesus, Paul or John. The Bible bears witness that most of the people hated God most of the time. Most people hate God now.

Then you need an accurate translation...one that does not make an aion "endless" when the Bible in Hebrew and Greek never does.

Oh, you mean the handful that has an agenda behind the esoteric translations of the Greek . No thanks.

What sustains their existance? And what removes their ability to choose?

Define "sustain". They have the freedom from God they desired. To be just as evil and callous and hateful as they want to be.

What is wrong with the God we have?
I wouldn't change anything.

You don't care for the idea that God can finally close the door on sin.

I know. I'm saying that condition does not last because God IS hope, IS salvation, and comfort..and the Lord of both the living and the dead (Romans 14:9) will not cast off forever. (Lam 3:31)

Offering up things to one audience meant for another is only ripping verses out of context, not supporting your cause.

When God saves them they are not unrepentant and their sin is removed as far as the east is from the west...my faith does not compromise with sin and allow it to continue forever like yours does with an eternal hellhole that spews blasphemy and cursing forever.

Except your faith is no where found in Scripture. You hope the dead can come to repentance, yet, God does not offer that hope to the departed.

The "tree of knowledge of good and evil" does not grant life, Nineveh...so what is your point? It certainly does not grant eternal existance to dead people.

My point was to find out what happened at the tree. Did you have a real answer or are you going to tap dance around this like you do the second death?

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

Yes. To the Word of God. You'll have to pardon me for not adding in all the logos stuff in my margins.

 

[Redfin]

THAT is the weak non-answer!

And this is spam.

I considered it an insightful (inciteful?) observation.

At least she didn't deny it.

:think:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Looks like those gnashing their teeth do. Looks as if the smoke of their torment does.

Psalm 139:

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

1 Peter 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

[logos_x]

Looks like those gnashing their teeth do. Looks as if the smoke of their torment does.

If you add to the word to make that separation last forever by making the aions of chastisement endless it looks that way.
What they are separated from is the Kingdom Age. And those who are not repentant even then suffer the second death. But, in the end, ALL things are in subjection to Him...hardly separation. Torment is not in Christ, nor is separation, and ALL things will be subject to Christ. Even death...the LAST enemy, will be overcome by Christ.

Right. That's why "I believe" won't cut it.

Ok, Nineveh, just why are we having this conversation then? We ARE talking about what you believe compared to what I believe...both using the same scriptural data. You say that I believe in error, I say you believe in error...and each of us says that you have to add to the Word to reach our conclusions.

You can say "I believe" won't cut it, ands I can say the same thing to you. Your belief "cuts it" while mine doesn't?

You are going to have to do better than that. Especially when your argument is that Christ can't save sinners because they are sinners.

Yet you insist, even though you know God owes the rebellious nothing, He must wait "age-during" for everyone to repent. He must "age-during" baby sit the lake of fire waitng patiently .... forever being witness to the unrepentant.... just in case..

And you say He must raise the dead so they will be tormented for all eternity. You say that eternal tormet is the ONLY answer, that creating an eternal torture chamber is the only thing God could possibly come up with as a final solution to sin...when in reality Christ SAVES sinners.

There is no "just in case" at all. He never intended to have people tormentd forever to begin with..and NEVER said it is impossible to save sinners. It's just the judgments are a part of the process of doing that...and not an end in themselves.

It's the man's name that is missing from the Book of Life of the Lamb.

Your point?

In Christ. Thing is not everyone wants to be In Christ.

So?

True.

Finally over this hump.

False.

What prevents a "true" here, Nineveh? A "final judgement" that KEEPS them from repenting and coming to Christ? God sends Christ to save the world but He cannot do it because God prevents Him from doing it with His own judgements. Is Christ saving us from God and His judgements, or from sin itself thereby making everything new?

It is not "false", Nineveh. You just don't believe it.

Nope. Neither did Jesus, Paul or John. The Bible bears witness that most of the people hated God most of the time. Most people hate God now.

So, they always will, then?
Jesus saves sinners...God haters, covenant breakers...whatever you want to call them. They are shortfallen, their wills are corrupt, they don't even see God nor His kingdom...they can't, they are dead and they are condemned already.

But Christ is the Savior...not you, not me, not the chrurch...Christ.
Forgive me for believing that He will actually get it done in the end.

Oh, you mean the handful that has an agenda behind the esoteric translations of the Greek . No thanks.

Ok...stick with a wrong translation. Good luck with that.

Define "sustain". They have the freedom from God they desired. To be just as evil and callous and hateful as they want to be.

So, Christ cannot save them? they are sinners, Christ saves sinners...but He won't save THESE sinners because they are sinners...is that your argument?

You don't care for the idea that God can finally close the door on sin.

I don't believe the door is closed on sin unless all sinners are saved from sin. If it holds anyone in the end captive then Jesus failed to save a sinner, and sin wins in that case.
I don't like the idea that sin wins and God just closes the door and walks away.

Offering up things to one audience meant for another is only ripping verses out of context, not supporting your cause.

God has an overall character, Nineveh. He is not two faced, nor is He double-minded.
When He said that every knee would bow and every tongue confess I think that is good news, not the bad news of an eternal Hell away from Him.

You, for some strange reason, find that unreasonable and unacceptable.
I think I know what the reason is and have argued agaist the ONLY reason for this strange "logic"...the belief in and endless and permanent misery that the Bible does not teach when translated properly.

Except your faith is no where found in Scripture. You hope the dead can come to repentance, yet, God does not offer that hope to the departed.

Liar.

My point was to find out what happened at the tree. Did you have a real answer or are you going to tap dance around this like you do the second death?

Why don't you ask what you want answered?

Yes. To the Word of God. You'll have to pardon me for not adding in all the logos stuff in my margins.

I don't have to pardon anything, you already have pardoned yourself.

 

[Nineveh]

I considered it an insightful (inciteful?) observation.

At least she didn't deny it.

:think:

If you have nothing to add to this thread, by all means don't feel compelled.

 

[Nineveh]

Psalm 139:...

Dave, if I recall correctly you still have a post to reply to. Wanna pick up the convo from there?

 

[Nineveh]

If you add to the word to make that separation last forever by making the aions of chastisement endless it looks that way.

If you want to believe the Greeks had no idea how to express "forever" you can believe that.

Ok, Nineveh, just why are we having this conversation then? We ARE talking about what you believe compared to what I believe...both using the same scriptural data. You say that I believe in error, I say you believe in error...and each of us says that you have to add to the Word to reach our conclusions.

Logos, your 3rd resurrection is an addition. God being "age-during" witness until the last hard unrepentant heart turns to Him is also an addition.

You are going to have to do better than that. Especially when your argument is that Christ can't save sinners because they are sinners.

Once again, shame on you for this mischaracterization. Jesus came to heal the sick. If the best you have is misrepresenting what I've said, your argument is exposed for being pathetically lacking.

God has done everything that needs done for the salvation of mankind except force men to love Him.

And you say He must raise the dead so they will be tormented for all eternity. You say that eternal tormet is the ONLY answer, that creating an eternal torture chamber is the only thing God could possibly come up with as a final solution to sin...when in reality Christ SAVES sinners.

Except John doesn't say that. He says those who do not believe are condemned already. Some folks don't like the idea that God wiped the entire world out with a flood. Some folks don't like that God drove the pagans out of Isreal's land. And some don't like how judgemental He is with that Law stuff. I am not suprised there are folks who do not like the idea God does not owe his enemies anything and is more than willing to give them their heart's desire.

There is no "just in case" at all. He never intended to have people tormentd forever to begin with..and NEVER said it is impossible to save sinners. It's just the judgments are a part of the process of doing that...and not an end in themselves.

No, God never intended men would follow satan. He never intended satan to rebel. But he did and we do. That was why God created a place for His enemies.

What prevents a "true" here, Nineveh?

From beginning to end the Bible records the majority hate God. There is not one place in the Bible that declaires all men will be saved. The Bible declares God wants all men to come to Him, but the Bible tells us even in the end times men's hearts are hard, even during the tribulation.

So, they always will, then?
Jesus saves sinners...God haters, covenant breakers...whatever you want to call them. They are shortfallen, their wills are corrupt, they don't even see God nor His kingdom...they can't, they are dead and they are condemned already.

But Christ is the Savior...not you, not me, not the chrurch...Christ.
Forgive me for believing that He will actually get it done in the end.

You are right. Your faith does nothing to bind God to being a baby sitter just in case His enemies have a change of heart at some unexpressed time in the "age during".

Ok...stick with a wrong translation. Good luck with that.

Right. So when was "age-during" added to the english word defining dictionary?

So, Christ cannot save them? they are sinners, Christ saves sinners...but He won't save THESE sinners because they are sinners...is that your argument?

No. Jesus is not beholden to save those who do not want to be saved.

I don't believe

So?

God has an overall character, Nineveh. He is not two faced, nor is He double-minded.
When He said that every knee would bow and every tongue confess I think that is good news, not the bad news of an eternal Hell away from Him.

Once again, what "you think" doesn't have any bearing on reality. Satan will confess God is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, but that doesn't mean satan will repent and become His follower. One more instance of "I believe" needing to add just a bit to the Word.

Liar.

Misjudging me does nothing to justify your faith that is absent from the Word.

Why don't you ask what you want answered?

I did. I asked you what happened at the tree and you busted out like Fred Astair tap dancing his way around the second death. Do you ever intend to answer or is this going to be another of those 5-pages-later-you-might-give-a-real-attempt? It's odd how you are so sure you are right, yet any hint of actually discussing death gets nothing more than flippant non answers.

I don't have to pardon anything, you already have pardoned yourself.

I've been pardoned by Christ

 

[logos_x]

If you want to believe the Greeks had no idea how to express "forever" you can believe that.

They did know how to express forever.
They didn't. Instead they used a word that DOESN'T mean forever on its own..aion and it's adjectives, which means age, in the plural it means ages, and aionion means "pertaining to an age or ages". In order to get and endless aion they would expressthat by using another word that means endless to show it as endless.
They didn't.

Logos, your 3rd resurrection is an addition. God being "age-during" witness until the last hard unrepentant heart turns to Him is also an addition.

Death being under Christs feet says death is not victorius. That you believe death will be victorious is an addition. Making the aions of chastisment endless is also an addition, requiring the adding of a word meaning endless to judgments.

Once again, shame on you for this mischaracterization. Jesus came to heal the sick. If the best you have is misrepresenting what I've said, your argument is exposed for being pathetically lacking.

God has done everything that needs done for the salvation of mankind except force men to love Him.

Love never fails...yet it requires no force for it to work.

Except John doesn't say that. He says those who do not believe are condemned already. Some folks don't like the idea that God wiped the entire world out with a flood. Some folks don't like that God drove the pagans out of Isreal's land. And some don't like how judgemental He is with that Law stuff. I am not suprised there are folks who do not like the idea God does not owe his enemies anything and is more than willing to give them their heart's desire.

Nineveh, what you fail to realize is man is corrupted. Their "hearts desire" is really messed up. Much of salvation depends on our messed up hearts being healed of those wrong desires. If God leaves them under the influence of these messed up desires He has not met our greatest need...which is to cause us to change or minds and hearts and all those desires that are contrary to His will.

Men cannot save themselves...it is literally impossible. But with God all things are possible.

No, God never intended men would follow satan. He never intended satan to rebel. But he did and we do. That was why God created a place for His enemies.

One that lasts forever and cannot remedy the corruption of creation fully...supposedly.
He could not find any way to cause a change of mind and heart instead, could He? God will never get to be all and all again, can He? Instead, He creates a place of torment...whatever you think that really is, locks the door, throws away the keys He aquired from Satan, and pretends they don't even exist and causes us to do the same.

Well, I'm sorry...I don't buy it.

From beginning to end the Bible records the majority hate God. There is not one place in the Bible that declaires all men will be saved. The Bible declares God wants all men to come to Him, but the Bible tells us even in the end times men's hearts are hard, even during the tribulation.

The Bible also says He will do all His desire.
Once again you confuse the process with the outcome.

You are right. Your faith does nothing to bind God to being a baby sitter just in case His enemies have a change of heart at some unexpressed time in the "age during".

And you are right..if that is what I was saying He was going to do. But you either don't understand what I'm saying or you are misrepresenting what I said to make it appear ridiculous.

All His enemies will be under His feet along with the rest of the universe. I think that is good news. You, however, want all those vanquished through Christ to be miserable forever. I wonder if Christ feels the same way about that :think:

Actually, I don't wonder at all. His salvation works. In order for it to work it has to meet the need...which is precisely in the area of self will as compared to God's. If one is not in subjection to God's will one is not in subjection at all. If you have merely put a muzzle on a dog, you haven't brought it into subjection. It's will is still the same.

Again...you really need to re-think what it means to be in subjection to Christ.

Right. So when was "age-during" added to the english word defining dictionary?

God did not use English to reveal Himself.
The Greek word Aion means age.
Aionion mean "pertaining to an age".
The plural of Aion means more that one age.

Now...when is an age "eternal"? Only if you add a word to it...like "endless"...and say "endless age". In the Greek, that is NEVER done. it is ALWAYS just plain old AION or AIONION, when judgements are talked about...which is quite often.

Now...where in the English word dictionary is an age always eternal?
How about NEVER. It is an undetermined time...such duration determined by its usage.

A true translation would not force a meaning upon a word that is not there...which is exactly what eternal or everlasting or forever does.

No. Jesus is not beholden to save those who do not want to be saved.

It's a wonder anyone is saved then, isn't it?

Once again, what "you think" doesn't have any bearing on reality. Satan will confess God is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, but that doesn't mean satan will repent and become His follower. One more instance of "I believe" needing to add just a bit to the Word.

Then he will not be in subjection...which makes the Word of God untrue.

Misjudging me does nothing to justify your faith that is absent from the Word.

Ditto

I did. I asked you what happened at the tree and you busted out like Fred Astair tap dancing his way around the second death. Do you ever intend to answer or is this going to be another of those 5-pages-later-you-might-give-a-real-attempt? It's odd how you are so sure you are right, yet any hint of actually discussing death gets nothing more than flippant non answers.

It made them subject to death. It also changed how they view themselves and God.
Next question?

I've been pardoned by Christ

Me, too

 

[CabinetMaker]

Logos-X, what is your definition of death in this thread? Spiritual, physical, both, neither?

 

[logos_x]

Logos-X, what is your definition of death in this thread? Spiritual, physical, both, neither?

Both.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Both.

What about the second death? Physical, spiritual, both, neither?

 

[logos_x]

What about the second death? Physical, spiritual, both, neither?

Both

 

[CabinetMaker]

Both

How do you arrive at both for the second death?

 

[red77]

If you want to believe the Greeks had no idea how to express "forever" you can believe that.

they DID know how to express forever, if I'm not mistaken the word AIDIOS translates as just that, its also used twice in the Bible but never in verses that relate to eternal torment, had it been there would be no argument, but it wasnt.....

 

[logos_x]

How do you arrive at both for the second death?

People that have not been saved are spiritually dead.

They are raised, judged, and sent to a second death.

 

[CabinetMaker]

People that have not been saved are spiritually dead.

They are raised, judged, and sent to a second death.

Okay. But look at Revelations. Hell and death are cast into the lake of fire BEFORE people are judged and sent to the second death. Sop what is the second death really? It can't be physical because that was already cast into the lake of fire. What is the second death really?