BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

Now who's off the subject?

I'll start citing verses when you do.

How does this apply to the conversation of eternal torment?

"Assistant pastor" dave...

If a member of a congregation is committing an act of sexual immorality, what would you do? According to Paul, what is a church body supposed to do (please cite the verses)?

 

[logos_x]

Where do we see the second death is "dying to sin"? Are you sure that is what we are dying to in the second death?

What do you mean "we", Kimosabe?

But, yes, I'm sure. Anything else runs counter to God's glory as Savior.

 

[dale]

...God gave me the faith to believe Him, and it will never die. His Words are Life and Spirit to those that find them.

And that just may be the crux of the issue.

You said that God gave you your faith. Those believeing in ultimate reconciliation would agree that that is the ONLY way one can come to faith... by God granting it. If the only way to salvation is by God granting the faith to believe, then your scenario would suggest God withholding it from some that Christ died to redeem. I believe that would be counterproductive.

 

[Aimiel]

If the only way to salvation is by God granting the faith to believe, then your scenario would suggest God withholding it from some that Christ died to redeem. I believe that would be counterproductive.

I don't believe that God withholds faith from anyone. He gives, "the measure," of faith to every man. I believe that He gives the same amount of faith to everyone, but use of that faith, then later exercise and growth of that faith, is up to the individual and his choices. The question won't be, "What did you do with the life I gave you?" The question God will ask on Judgement Day will be: "What did you do with the faith I gave you, where is it?" Jesus asked, "Nevertheless, when The Son of Man returns, will He find faith in the earth?" Seems that He wondered whether a single soul on the earth will be alive with faith on that day. I pray that He finds faith in me, and that His Word (seed) that I have sown in others, through preaching, will return to Him fruitful, as well.

 

[dale]

...use of that faith, then later exercise and growth of that faith, is up to the individual and his choices.

Sounds like works righteousness to me.

I believe it's up to God. If He gives me the knowledge to believe my house is on fire and I'm gonna die if I don't get out, I credit Him. I credit Him for giving me all the tools necessary to accomplish it. He gave me the understanding, the desire, and the means. If He withholds any of these, I don't get out.

Likewise with salvation. I credit Him with providing all that was necessary to be saved.

If I do anything, it was because He FIRST gave me the understanding, desire, and the means to do it.

 

[Aimiel]

Sounds like works righteousness to me.

It isn't works, but grace that saves. He gives not only the grace, but the faith to believe in Him for that grace.

I credit Him with providing all that was necessary to be saved.

Amen.

If I do anything, it was because He FIRST gave me the understanding, desire, and the means to do it.

And if you reject Him, is He to blame? I believe that He draws all men with the same drawing. I believe He gives all men the measure of faith. Not everyone is saved, though.

 

[dale]

It isn't works, but grace that saves. He gives not only the grace, but the faith to believe in Him for that grace.

I agree it isn't works, but grace. But when you say, "...but use of that faith, then later exercise and growth of that faith, is up to the individual and his choices." you have turned it into works.

And if you reject Him, is He to blame?

Blame? I don't "blame" God for anything (at least I hope I don't). If someone rejects Gods offer of salvation through Christ, then I believe God has yet to bring that one to a full realization of what's at stake. Don't get too bent out of shape though... He will!

I believe that He draws all men with the same drawing. I believe He gives all men the measure of faith. Not everyone is saved, though.

So you are saved because you, by a power not given to you by God but a power that you produced all by yourself, made good use of the faith God gave you and God then rewarded you with salvation? Is that correct?

 

[Ecumenicist]

"Assistant pastor" dave...

If a member of a congregation is committing an act of sexual immorality, what would you do? According to Paul, what is a church body supposed to do (please cite the verses)?

You obviously have some specific verses in mind, why dont'tyou share them, and let us
know how this example applies to the question of eternal torment?

thanx,

Dave

 

[Aimiel]

I agree it isn't works, but grace. But when you say, "...but use of that faith, then later exercise and growth of that faith, is up to the individual and his choices." you have turned it into works.

No, I haven't. God gave men the ability to use their faith. They choose to accept or reject that faith.

So you are saved because you, by a power not given to you by God but a power that you produced all by yourself, made good use of the faith God gave you and God then rewarded you with salvation? Is that correct?

No. God created all power. He also gave men freewill. He doesn't override that freewill.

 

[Nineveh]

What do you mean "we", Kimosabe?

Does the second death claim everyone as the first does?

 

[Nineveh]

You obviously have some specific verses in mind, why dont'tyou share them, and let us
know how this example applies to the question of eternal torment?

You wanted to talk about "unconditional love". So let's.

If a member of your congregation was committing sexual immorality, what would you do?

Does Paul tell us how a congregation of members of the Body of Christ should handle it? If so, where?

 

[dale]

No, I haven't. God gave men the ability to use their faith. They choose to accept or reject that faith.

Based on your scenario, it sounds to me that God must have given you something more than the one that didn't believe. After all, you figured it out, they didn't.

No. God created all power. He also gave men freewill. He doesn't override that freewill.

If what you mean by "freewill" is our ability to choose. Then I'd say God is involved in our ability to choose. He doesn't have to override it because He is working to create it.

 

[Rockhead]

If what you mean by "freewill" is our ability to choose. Then I'd say God is involved in our ability to choose. He doesn't have to override it because He is working to create it.

"For it is God who energiseth within you, both the desiring and the energising, in behalf of His good pleasure." -Phil. 2:13- :doh:

 

[dale]

"For it is God who energiseth within you, both the desiring and the energising, in behalf of His good pleasure." -Phil. 2:13- :doh:

Thank's Rockhead... exactly

 

[Ecumenicist]

You wanted to talk about "unconditional love". So let's.

If a member of your congregation was committing sexual immorality, what would you do?

Does Paul tell us how a congregation of members of the Body of Christ should handle it? If so, where?

We've recently had this conversation, Nin.

If someone in the group were to become violent and hurt others, that person would
have to be restrained and removed from the group, to prevent him from hurting himself
or others. Same if a person uses words to foment dissent and discord within a group,
because words hurt people too.

Putting that person out would be the most loving course for everyone, would be motivated
out of love. And even though the person might be put out of the group for the good of
the group, every effort would be made to help that person find healing through the efforts of
individuals within the group, hoping that the person might one day be restored.

God's unconditional motivation is love, for evreyone. Sometimes the most loving
course possible is seperating someone from others to help prevent further harm.

The story of the prodigal child says it best, Nin.

 

[Nineveh]

We've recently had this conversation, Nin.

If someone in the group were to become violent and hurt others, that person would
have to be restrained and removed from the group, to prevent him from hurting himself
or others. Same if a person uses words to foment dissent and discord within a group,
because words hurt people too.

Putting that person out would be the most loving course for everyone, would be motivated
out of love. And even though the person might be put out of the group for the good of
the group, every effort would be made to help that person find healing through the efforts of
individuals within the group, hoping that the person might one day be restored.

You don't seem to understand the question I asked you. I didn't say a single word about "violent people" who may or may not need restrained nor was it about "mean language". While you claim we have spoken about this before, you don't seem to have kept your notes on it.

You have the option to reply to the questions I asked, or change this reply to address the questions. It's up to you.

To refesh:
If a member of your congregation was committing sexual immorality, what would you do?

Does Paul tell us how a congregation of members of the Body of Christ should handle it? If so, where?

 

[Nineveh]

If what you mean by "freewill" is our ability to choose. Then I'd say God is involved in our ability to choose. He doesn't have to override it because He is working to create it.

Are you calvinist?

 

[dale]

Are you calvinist?

Nope

 

[Ecumenicist]

You don't seem to understand the question I asked you. I didn't say a single word about "violent people" who may or may not need restrained nor was it about "mean language". While you claim we have spoken about this before, you don't seem to have kept your notes on it.

You have the option to reply to the questions I asked, or change this reply to address the questions. It's up to you.

To refesh:
If a member of your congregation was committing sexual immorality, what would you do?

Does Paul tell us how a congregation of members of the Body of Christ should handle it? If so, where?

I've given my response regarding sin which harms people in general.

What specifically do you have in mind when you describe "sexual morality?" Adultery?
Do I think adulterers should be dragged into the street and stoned? No, Jesus said
that "he who is without sin" should cast the first stone, and I'll go with Jesus on that.

I doubt that Jesus asked that we be merciful towards adulterers so that they would be
unscathed when he casts then into eternal torment.

I don't think Paul would like you setting his words against Jesus' words, Nin, I don't
think that was ever Paul's intent, and I think Paul will tell you that to your face one
day.

Just as God is merciful to us, we are called to show mercy towards others.

 

[logos_x]

Does the second death claim everyone as the first does?

Obviously not.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Rev 2:11 KJV)