Brexit

[rocketman]

It's unclear. No one knows. One of the main drivers of the Leave vote seems to have been immigration. Currently, the Irish border is nearly invisible. Do you not think that the UK's only land border, which it shares with the EU, will necessarily have to become more real if the will of the voters is to be kept?

That is the nature of national sovereignty Rex, the UK is under no obligation to acquiesce to the mass immigration which impacts jobs & places to live, over-regulation and adherence to EU laws, and financial drain to a bloated bureaucracy like the EU is imposing on them. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and they will be able to stand on their own quite well without the EU, there really is no value added for them to stay in at this point really. Time will tell but, I suspect the EU is getting ready to implode and the UK will define their borders and the rest of the stakeholders (Ireland, Scotland,et al.) will also have to make decisions whether they want to stay with the UK or bond with the EU but, that might be a short lived decision to hitch their wagon to the EU...France along with four other nations are thinking of leaving the EU as well.

 

[Arthur Brain]

DR, I wish I could be there to have a pint of stout with you but I'd be afraid of getting knifed in a mob of Muslims. Have one for me.

Usually I'd regard this type of post as steeped in irony but in your case I suspect it's actually for real...

:freak:

 

[Arthur Brain]

National sovereignty, borders, language, and culture are what make a country. The mish mash of multiple cultures inside one border does not work, i.e. multiculturalism is not compatible, a failure, and it is at the heart of why BREXIT came to pass. Multiple cultures can reside in one country but, only one culture is the dominant one, it is the national identity, and all other cultures must assimilate to the national culture or society breaks down. Nobody is trying to put in checkpoints to cross town Rex, what the Brits as well as Americans want are defined borders, national language, and all other cultures to assimilate to the national culture or leave...
maybe you are not paying attention that this is the same sentiment that is happening in America as well.

You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Speaking as someone who actually lives in the UK I can tell you that multiculturalism has thrived and will continue to thrive regardless of this vote. 'National identity/culture'? What the hell is that even supposed to mean? There's no blanket 'American' or 'English' culture outside of those who have their own particular version of what that should happen to be...

 

[Crucible]

I find the idea of countries making there highest pride being 'multicultural' disturbing. It hints a certain amount of secular/liberal obsession.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I find the idea of countries making there highest pride being 'multicultural' disturbing. It hints a certain amount of secular/liberal obsession.

Well, complete crappola as usual and you don't even think women should have a vote in things so go trim your wispy little excuse for a beard...

 

[Crucible]

Well, complete crappola as usual and you don't even think women should have a vote in things so go trim your wispy little excuse for a beard...

I don't believe in gigantic movements and trouble for things that are moot or of little importance. Women make up 60% of the voting body over here in America and they vote for who the men vote for
And then there are things like gay marriage, which only a very small percentage of an already very small percentage of people have indulged in. That's a whole hell of a lot of trouble just to one up conservatives- which was the one and only reason the nonsense even started in the first place.

And
It's not opinion, it's a fact really- you all pride yourself obsessively with being 'multicultural' because it has everything to do with slamming conservatives; most of you could really care about a homogeneous society of every type of person.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't believe in gigantic movements and trouble for things that are moot or of little importance. Women make up 60% of the voting body over here in America and they vote for who the men vote for

Uh, yeah dude. Women vote for whatever or whoever the men vote for. Got it...

And then there are things like gay marriage, which only a very small percentage of an already very small percentage of people have indulged in. That's a whole hell of a lot of trouble just to one up conservatives- which was the one and only reason the nonsense even started in the first place.

Yeah dude, the only reason gay marriage came to be passed was to stick it to conservatives blah blah blah...

And
It's not opinion, it's a fact really- you all pride yourself obsessively with being 'multicultural' because it has everything to do with slamming conservatives; most of you could really care about a homogeneous society of every type of person.

Oh please, all you ever proffer is opinion without anything but stuck up pomposity to "back" it up with. You've done it time and again and it's adolescent, precocious and tiresome.

 

[rocketman]

You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Speaking as someone who actually lives in the UK I can tell you that multiculturalism has thrived and will continue to thrive regardless of this vote. 'National identity/culture'? What the hell is that even supposed to mean? There's no blanket 'American' or 'English' culture outside of those who have their own particular version of what that should happen to be...

I think you are misunderstanding what I have said or are interpreting what I have said into something different. Yes, there are unique national cultures in every country, sometimes that is made up of many cultures meshing over time but, to think that British culture is on par with or even remotely the same as the culture in a muslim nation, or that the two are even compatible is nonsense. You might want to read this article it explains from a European POV, there is reference the UK style of multiculturalism and why multiculturalism is failing and dangerous, read it, see if you understand what the article is saying and if you find agreement with it. There are other articles I have read on the subject but, this one is very well written.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism

 

[rexlunae]

That is the nature of national sovereignty Rex, the UK is under no obligation to acquiesce to the mass immigration which impacts jobs & places to live, over-regulation and adherence to EU laws, and financial drain to a bloated bureaucracy like the EU is imposing on them.

Right, so, why did you object when I suggested that it was a possibility?

The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and they will be able to stand on their own quite well without the EU, there really is no value added for them to stay in at this point really.

And the EU is an even larger economy. So? Does that guarantee political stability? The Brexit vote itself demonstrates that it doesn't.

Time will tell but, I suspect the EU is getting ready to implode and the UK will define their borders and the rest of the stakeholders (Ireland, Scotland,et al.) will also have to make decisions whether they want to stay with the UK or bond with the EU but, that might be a short lived decision to hitch their wagon to the EU...France along with four other nations are thinking of leaving the EU as well.

Right. My point is that the UK is now in a much more tenuous situation than it was before, and probably more so than the EU, by my estimate.

 

[rocketman]

Right, so, why did you object when I suggested that it was a possibility?

Didn't realize I did, or I misunderstood you...:idunno:

And the EU is an even larger economy. So? Does that guarantee political stability? The Brexit vote itself demonstrates that it doesn't.

The UK does not need the EU to survive but, rest assured if enough big players in the EU decide to exit the EU is sunk. I don't believe there is a guarantee of political stability in either case but, there is the shedding of EU regulatory burden which is a win in itself.

Right. My point is that the UK is now in a much more tenuous situation than it was before, and probably more so than the EU, by my estimate.

I disagree, I think that the break will be messy initially but, the benefits of it will outweigh the pains they will endure and those will be short-lived. The EU is the one that I see is in trouble and the UK leaving is just the first domino to fall.

 

[rexlunae]

National sovereignty, borders, language, and culture are what make a country. The mish mash of multiple cultures inside one border does not work, i.e. multiculturalism is not compatible, a failure, and it is at the heart of why BREXIT came to pass. Multiple cultures can reside in one country but, only one culture is the dominant one, it is the national identity, and all other cultures must assimilate to the national culture or society breaks down.

I don't buy that, and I don't think you'd be able to demonstrate it beyond the anecdotal.

Nobody is trying to put in checkpoints to cross town Rex,

No, and in part I was illustrating the end of what drbrumly wants. But while there may be no borders in towns due to this vote in particular, there could be borders in Ireland.

... what the Brits as well as Americans want are defined borders, national language, and all other cultures to assimilate to the national culture or leave...
maybe you are not paying attention that this is the same sentiment that is happening in America as well.

Strange, though, the only Brits who actually have a potential border voted near them against it.

 

[jgarden]

My take on Brexit is that any benefits associated with the EU and globalization have gone directly into the bank accounts of the wealthy - leaving the middle and working classes to deal with the negative dislocations.

The 1% have created an enraged electorate who are no longer willing to accept the conventional wisdom of politicians and governments that were content to treat them like commodities and stood by while their standard of living has stagnated or declined.

There is a price to be paid when the unequal distribution of wealth reaches that critical point where the majority have lost faith in the system and no longer believe in the ideology or institutions that bind them together.

DO YOU HEAR THE PEOPLE SING, SINGING THE SONGS OF ANGRY MEN!

 

[rocketman]

I don't buy that, and I don't think you'd be able to demonstrate it beyond the anecdotal.

I believe you are wrong, and I just posted a European article that explains in great detail why multiculturalism is a dangerous failure. My commentary on the subject is far from anecdotal, there are many more writings on the subject but, they all outline the same pitfalls with it.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...lticulturalism


Here is another recent article which articulates the failure of multiculturalism in the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/552478/Farage-on-Friday-Ukip-leader-on-multiculturalism

 

[musterion]

Let's see a leftist who claims MC works in England stroll hand in hand with his uncovered woman (or with his fellow homo), proper British bulldog on leash, through any Mohammedan stronghold.

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is not about multiculturism we have had that for more than 50 years, it is the sheer numbers. We just can't take 300-400-500 000 immigrants coming into the UK every year

It's STUPID

The husband comes over then once he is here he has the legal right to bring his wife and kids so it turns into over a MILLION every year. The politicians who decide these things are totally cut off from the problem, living in their leafy lanes. People keep telling them, Gordon Brown called it bigotry and got kicked out, but nne of his successors are any better....they say "oh people just need to be taught" actually what they say [because they don't dare say that] they say "we have not managed to get our message across" it means the same "the people need to be taught...they are bigots"

But the message IS understood...that is why they will stay in opposition.

But now Labour is imploding, but whichever side wins the left or the elite right they ALL believe in totally free movement of people.

There is no longer a worker's party in Britain.

The political scene is in chaos, the PM has resigned, the Chancellor has not been seen since Thursday night...the Brexiter faction are now denying all their platform promises.

The mess is unbelievable ....

What needs to happen and I think it will is for a general election with one camp running on full brexit and the other on not activating the referendum decision.

But the worker's party Labour are on the wrong side.

 

[Totton Linnet]

...then there is the Scots

 

[Desert Reign]

...then there is the Scots

The ballot paper on 23rd June didn't say anything about Scotland leaving or remaining in the EU. These people just can't take it when they lose.

 

[rexlunae]

The ballot paper on 23rd June didn't say anything about Scotland leaving or remaining in the EU. These people just can't take it when they lose.

It didn't say anything explicitly, no. But that doesn't mean that it won't change a few minds seeing the outcome. It was 55% to 45% in favor of Scotland staying in the UK. Do you think there are 5% in Scotland whose vote might change now?

 

[patrick jane]

It didn't say anything explicitly, no. But that doesn't mean that it won't change a few minds seeing the outcome. It was 55% to 45% in favor of Scotland staying in the UK. Do you think there are 5% in Scotland whose vote might change now?

Scotland wouldn't bode well on it's own

 

[Arthur Brain]

I think you are misunderstanding what I have said or are interpreting what I have said into something different. Yes, there are unique national cultures in every country, sometimes that is made up of many cultures meshing over time but, to think that British culture is on par with or even remotely the same as the culture in a muslim nation, or that the two are even compatible is nonsense. You might want to read this article it explains from a European POV, there is reference the UK style of multiculturalism and why multiculturalism is failing and dangerous, read it, see if you understand what the article is saying and if you find agreement with it. There are other articles I have read on the subject but, this one is very well written.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism

I could only get so far into the article before I was asked to log in to read the full thing, but I read enough to find myself disagreeing with it. Using examples of nutcases like Anders Breivik is simply reprehensible and not only an example of typical alarmist rhetoric but a disservice to those who died under his psychopathic killing spree. I'm no fan of David Cameron by any stretch and will shed no tears over his departure circa October after his practically forced resignation from leadership but he hardly 'denounced' multiculturalism over here. Nobody advocates the implementation of extremism aka 'sharia law' like Musterion seems to think and even your own article says it 'fuels the success of far right parties so what would your views be on that?

Hardly an impressive article frankly.