Bob should add to that list that smoking pot causes people to become flat-earthers. Because it does...except for me. I am the lone exception to this rule. :smokie:
Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament
- Thread starter patrick jane
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Bob should add to that list that smoking pot causes people to become flat-earthers. Because it does...except for me. I am the lone exception to this rule. :smokie:
Genesis 1:1-19 KJV - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
According to my interpretation, the sun and moon were created on the fourth day. The moon gives off it's own light NOT the reflection of the sun. On the first day God created the heaven and the earth, darkness was upon the firmament (heaven) and the earth. God created Light and divided the light from the darkness. God named the light Day and He named the darkness Night. That completed the first day.
The two great lights must be the sun and moon. Now on day one God create the heaven and earth but on day two God made the firmament, so what was Heaven on the first day? Also on day two God called the firmament Heaven. That completed the second day. Day three God called the land earth and the water seas and created man, all animals and plants. Not until day four does God place lights in the firmament for signs and seasons and created stars. God put them in the firmament to give light upon the earth and to divide the light from the darkness, again. The waters above the firmament imply a dome of some kind to me, surrounding and covering the earth, sky and firmament. I think clouds and rain are in the air just as the fowl of the air. The earth doesn't necessarily have to be flat for us to still be in an enclosed earth and firmament, imo. So why do I think it's possible and actually described to be flat by God? In another post or over the course of many posts I will show how interpret numerous other scriptures of our cosmos being enclosed, the earth having foundations and created to be fixed and immovable or stationary. There are verses about circle and above the circle, face, lines, boundaries and many more key words that lead to my belief that it's possible.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
According to my interpretation, the sun and moon were created on the fourth day. The moon gives off it's own light NOT the reflection of the sun. On the first day God created the heaven and the earth, darkness was upon the firmament (heaven) and the earth. God created Light and divided the light from the darkness. God named the light Day and He named the darkness Night. That completed the first day.
The two great lights must be the sun and moon. Now on day one God create the heaven and earth but on day two God made the firmament, so what was Heaven on the first day? Also on day two God called the firmament Heaven. That completed the second day. Day three God called the land earth and the water seas and created man, all animals and plants. Not until day four does God place lights in the firmament for signs and seasons and created stars. God put them in the firmament to give light upon the earth and to divide the light from the darkness, again. The waters above the firmament imply a dome of some kind to me, surrounding and covering the earth, sky and firmament. I think clouds and rain are in the air just as the fowl of the air. The earth doesn't necessarily have to be flat for us to still be in an enclosed earth and firmament, imo. So why do I think it's possible and actually described to be flat by God? In another post or over the course of many posts I will show how interpret numerous other scriptures of our cosmos being enclosed, the earth having foundations and created to be fixed and immovable or stationary. There are verses about circle and above the circle, face, lines, boundaries and many more key words that lead to my belief that it's possible.
Right Divider
Body part
The moon is still a "great light" whether it is reflecting the sun or not. But I know that you need this to protect your bad (i.e., false) theory about the shape of the earth.
Why is the sun not visible 24 HOURS A DAY (using a telescope) on your "flat earth"? (and NO... perspective is not a valid answer since the sun is NEVER less than NINE DEGREES above the horizon from the FARTHER possible point).
Come clean flatt erther.
Ah. This explains why you are so stupid.
My IQ is 130... :chuckle:
I rest my case.
[h=1]Auguste Piccard[/h]SWISS-BELGIAN PHYSICIST
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Auguste-Piccard-Swiss-Belgian-physicist
Here's a few scriptures that describe earth as either fixed, immovable, or stationary with foundations. Some descriptions by God with words like breadth which is not a globe measurement that can be taken and bounds and boundaries. And some that where God describes earth as a circle in an enclosed earth and firmament. And God describes the firmament (outer space) as being hanging over the earth like a garment or tent stretched out from the north. The north in a flat earth model would be at the center of the circle with all the land masses and oceans surrounding it.
Words like breadth, circle. dome (in Hebrew), compass, foundation, immovable, fixed, etc.
Job 38:18 KJV - [FONT="]Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.[/FONT]
Isaiah 40:12 KJV - Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Isaiah 40:21-22 KJV - Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in Isaiah 40:28-31 KJV - Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Job 38:4-21 KJV - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
Job 38:31-36 KJV - Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Romans 11:33-34 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
I believe that God knows exactly which words He uses and tells His Prophets to write. His word is perfect and will be preserved for eternity. God's ways are past finding out. We think we know how everything began? The big bang, evolution from monkeys, and now we are cloning animals, eventually people, manipulating and changing DNA, and thinking we know about the composition of the firmament? I believe every one of these things are a lie and completely untrue. Satan deceives us in many ways, sometimes very big lies and deceptions. Maybe the principalities and powers in high places don't want us to know the truth because the whole world would know that God is real and believe in Christ. That's only one of many reasons why they won't tell.
Ephesians 6:12-13 KJV - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
When reading the Bible it helps to look up key words and phrases for the Bible definitions. They can sometimes vary from a modern day dictionary. I use the King James Dictionary and you can research at :
KJV Dictionary - Definitions of words from the King James Bible
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That was amazing. I wish it would have been the full screen but wow. Those shots of the beautiful sun God created left me awestruck. All I saw was a flat horizon from 120,000 feet. starting a 6:20 to the end are the best evidence of no curvature. Who can debunk that?
The term "firmament" and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:
רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah
from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
רָקַע raqa` raw-kah'
a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
Most people interpret this to mean just the expanse of the sky (the atmosphere) or outer space, or both (which it is), but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure.
Many modern scholars consign the term "firmament" as a relic of a pre-scientific culture and translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault" in some modern Bibles. It is rendered as "firmament" in the KJV. The problem that puzzles people is the implication in the Hebrew language of the firmament being a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament). That structure and word choice can be explained in the context of the Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation of Genesis.
Young Earth Creationists have interpreted the "waters above the firmament" as a theoretical "water canopy" which once surrounded the Earth but no longer exists. They cite this as their source for the waters of Noah's flood. This is incorrect, and a concept that does not exactly hold water (pun intended) when closely examined within the literal framework of the Genesis narrative. (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars are "in" the firmament. Therefore, applying the rules of grammar and logic, those waters that are "above the firmament" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars. That means these waters are above the visible cosmos. For some this is a hard pill to swallow, but that is exactly what the Bible is saying.
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
The Bible says that all wisdom and knowledge is found in the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God (see Colossians 2:3). The same holds true for the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. According to the Scriptures, there is a physical/spiritual structure to the universe. The Apostle Paul makes reference to the importance of this knowledge in the book of Ephesians where he wrote:(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
(Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV)
Pay close attention to the structure of the grammar. Paul is speaking about two different things in this passage. The first is the structure of things, "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;" and the second is, "to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." The important key word here is the conjunction "And" which separates the two clauses. In other words, Paul is saying there are two things the believer can and should know. 1) The dimensions and structure of all things, which can be defined. 2) The love of Christ, which is beyond full comprehension by man. A corollary to the truth of this passage is found in this Old Testament proverb:(Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV)
"The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings [is] unsearchable."
(Proverbs 25:3 KJV)
The firmament deals with the structure of the present heavens and Earth (Genesis 2:1), as opposed to the structure of the original heaven and Earth (Genesis 1:1). There is presently a three (3) heavens structure. In the old world of the original creation, there was a different configuration. Let's look back to Genesis 1:6 again and more closely examine that verse to determine that present structure and review something that we previously just touched on:(Proverbs 25:3 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so."
(Gen 1:6-7 KJV)
@daqq [h=3]The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical[/h]www.kjvbible.org/firmament.html(Gen 1:6-7 KJV)
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[h=3]The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical[/h]On the second day of the creation, the Lord God "divided" the waters (plural) of the great "deep" into two parts with a "firmament" in the midst. According to Genesis 1:10, both the waters that were upon the face of the Earth and the waters which He placed ABOVE the firmament He called "Seas":"And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good."The term "firmament" and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:
רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah
from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
רָקַע raqa` raw-kah'
a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
Most people interpret this to mean just the expanse of the sky (the atmosphere) or outer space, or both (which it is), but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure.
Many modern scholars consign the term "firmament" as a relic of a pre-scientific culture and translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault" in some modern Bibles. It is rendered as "firmament" in the KJV. The problem that puzzles people is the implication in the Hebrew language of the firmament being a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament). That structure and word choice can be explained in the context of the Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation of Genesis.
Young Earth Creationists have interpreted the "waters above the firmament" as a theoretical "water canopy" which once surrounded the Earth but no longer exists. They cite this as their source for the waters of Noah's flood. This is incorrect, and a concept that does not exactly hold water (pun intended) when closely examined within the literal framework of the Genesis narrative. (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars are "in" the firmament. Therefore, applying the rules of grammar and logic, those waters that are "above the firmament" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars. That means these waters are above the visible cosmos. For some this is a hard pill to swallow, but that is exactly what the Bible is saying."Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."The Bible says that all wisdom and knowledge is found in the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God (see Colossians 2:3). The same holds true for the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. According to the Scriptures, there is a physical/spiritual structure to the universe. The Apostle Paul makes reference to the importance of this knowledge in the book of Ephesians where he wrote:
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."Pay close attention to the structure of the grammar. Paul is speaking about two different things in this passage. The first is the structure of things, "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;" and the second is, "to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." The important key word here is the conjunction "And" which separates the two clauses. In other words, Paul is saying there are two things the believer can and should know. 1) The dimensions and structure of all things, which can be defined. 2) The love of Christ, which is beyond full comprehension by man. A corollary to the truth of this passage is found in this Old Testament proverb:
(Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV)
"The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings [is] unsearchable."The firmament deals with the structure of the present heavens and Earth (Genesis 2:1), as opposed to the structure of the original heaven and Earth (Genesis 1:1). There is presently a three (3) heavens structure. In the old world of the original creation, there was a different configuration. Let's look back to Genesis 1:6 again and more closely examine that verse to determine that present structure and review something that we previously just touched on:
(Proverbs 25:3 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so."@daqq
(Gen 1:6-7 KJV)
(Gen 1:10 KJV)
This is important to understand. We know that the waters on the Earth are called "Seas" in the Bible, but there is also another "Sea" that is spoken of in the Scriptures, and that one is above the firmament. (Special note: Notice that the word "Sea" is capitalized at Genesis 1:10 in the KJV Bible). But, exactly where is "ABOVE" the firmament? During the seven days of the Genesis regeneration the Lord God defined Three Heavens. The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere:
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."
(Gen 1:20 KJV)
The second heaven is the vast expanse of the physical universe - outer space as we call it:(Gen 1:20 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"
(Gen 1:14 KJV)
These two heavens constitute a continuum called the "firmament," and this firmament is collectively called "Heaven":(Gen 1:14 KJV)
"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Gen 1:8 KJV)
The Third Heaven is above this upper "Sea," and this higher sea is below the Throne of God:(Gen 1:8 KJV)
"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
(Revelation 4:6 KJV)
Therefore, this particular "Sea" above the firmament is above the known physical universe. Since the sun, moon and stars are "in" the firmament this Sea MUST be above them. This is difficult for the science of man to fathom, but it is a Scriptural fact on cosmology. It represents a firm and impassable barrier between the world of man (below) and the abode of God (above). Here are some additional verses in the Bible which refer to this particular Sea:(Revelation 4:6 KJV)
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
This is the "sea" that John saw in his visions:(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
"And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
(Rev 4:6 KJV)
This is a present "sea" of separation that will no longer exist when God destroys the old world and makes all things new after the 1,000-year Kingdom of Heaven and the final judgment that follows:(Rev 4:6 KJV)
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
(Revelation 21:1 KJV)
This "sea" is also spoken of in Exodus 20:11, the verse frequently quoted by Young Earth Creationists as a proof text to support their doctrine:(Revelation 21:1 KJV)
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
(Exodus 20:11 KJV)
The reference to "the sea" in the above verse is a reference to the sea established above the firmament, NOT to any sea on the Earth's surface. Look at the English grammar of the verse. The heaven and Earth are set apart as separate and distinct entities and so is "the sea." That sea above the firmament was not made until the second day of Genesis. There is something even more important to notice about these waters above the firmament. Look again at the passage concerning the second day:(Exodus 20:11 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
Something is missing there. Do you remember what was said previously? This work on the second day is the ONLY day in the Genesis narrative where the Lord does NOT say it "was good." Therefore, when you consider the statement the Lord makes in Genesis 1:31 where He says that all that was made was "very good"...(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
(Genesis 1:31 KJV)
...it must be considered so in the context of circumstances. The context is the overall work of Reconstruction from Ruin and the preparation of the Earth and a new world for Man. The term "very good" does not mean "perfect," and the sea of separation placed between the world above and the world below was not good, but necessary. It would not be until the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross that a way would be made for crossing that barrier (the sea, or waters, above the firmament).(Genesis 1:31 KJV)
@daqq
[h=3]The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical[/h]On the second day in the Genesis narrative the Lord calls for there to be a "firmament" in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical
On the second day of the creation, the Lord God "divided" the waters (plural) of the great "deep" into two parts with a "firmament" in the midst. According to Genesis 1:10, both the waters that were upon the face of the Earth and the waters which He placed ABOVE the firmament He called "Seas":"And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good."(Gen 1:10 KJV)This is important to understand. We know that the waters on the Earth are called "Seas" in the Bible, but there is also another "Sea" that is spoken of in the Scriptures, and that one is above the firmament. (Special note: Notice that the word "Sea" is capitalized at Genesis 1:10 in the KJV Bible). But, exactly where is "ABOVE" the firmament? During the seven days of the Genesis regeneration the Lord God defined Three Heavens. The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere:
"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."The second heaven is the vast expanse of the physical universe - outer space as we call it:
(Gen 1:20 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"These two heavens constitute a continuum called the "firmament," and this firmament is collectively called "Heaven":
(Gen 1:14 KJV)
"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."The Third Heaven is above this upper "Sea," and this higher sea is below the Throne of God:
(Gen 1:8 KJV)
"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."Therefore, this particular "Sea" above the firmament is above the known physical universe. Since the sun, moon and stars are "in" the firmament this Sea MUST be above them. This is difficult for the science of man to fathom, but it is a Scriptural fact on cosmology. It represents a firm and impassable barrier between the world of man (below) and the abode of God (above). Here are some additional verses in the Bible which refer to this particular Sea:
(Revelation 4:6 KJV)
"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."This is the "sea" that John saw in his visions:
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
"And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind."This is a present "sea" of separation that will no longer exist when God destroys the old world and makes all things new after the 1,000-year Kingdom of Heaven and the final judgment that follows:
(Rev 4:6 KJV)
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."This "sea" is also spoken of in Exodus 20:11, the verse frequently quoted by Young Earth Creationists as a proof text to support their doctrine:
(Revelation 21:1 KJV)
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."The reference to "the sea" in the above verse is a reference to the sea established above the firmament, NOT to any sea on the Earth's surface. Look at the English grammar of the verse. The heaven and Earth are set apart as separate and distinct entities and so is "the sea." That sea above the firmament was not made until the second day of Genesis. There is something even more important to notice about these waters above the firmament. Look again at the passage concerning the second day:
(Exodus 20:11 KJV)
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."Something is missing there. Do you remember what was said previously? This work on the second day is the ONLY day in the Genesis narrative where the Lord does NOT say it "was good." Therefore, when you consider the statement the Lord makes in Genesis 1:31 where He says that all that was made was "very good"...
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."...it must be considered so in the context of circumstances. The context is the overall work of Reconstruction from Ruin and the preparation of the Earth and a new world for Man. The term "very good" does not mean "perfect," and the sea of separation placed between the world above and the world below was not good, but necessary. It would not be until the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross that a way would be made for crossing that barrier (the sea, or waters, above the firmament).
(Genesis 1:31 KJV)
That particular "sea" is represented (in type) by this object that was a part of the design of Solomon's Temple known as the "Molten Sea." (See 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2.) If you look at a diagram layout of the Temple you will see that this sea is between the Altar and the main part of the Temple where the Holy Place and Most Holy Place was.
@daqq
[h=3][/h]
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
The term "firmament" and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah
from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
רָקַע raqa` raw-kah'
a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
Most people interpret this to mean just the expanse of the sky (the atmosphere) or outer space, or both (which it is), but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure.
Many modern scholars consign the term "firmament" as a relic of a pre-scientific culture and translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault" in some modern Bibles. It is rendered as "firmament" in the KJV. The problem that puzzles people is the implication in the Hebrew language of the firmament being a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament). That structure and word choice can be explained in the context of the Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation of Genesis.
Young Earth Creationists have interpreted the "waters above the firmament" as a theoretical "water canopy" which once surrounded the Earth but no longer exists. They cite this as their source for the waters of Noah's flood. This is incorrect, and a concept that does not exactly hold water (pun intended) when closely examined within the literal framework of the Genesis narrative.
What does that verse say to? Do you think it means that east and west don't meet and makes earth a globe? IMO, north and south won't meet either but on a globe they would. Either way, if you head only east that's all you'll do is go east but eventually you end up where you started on a globe. I think it means very far indeed, as far as they can be removed away from us. To me that means on the other side of the world and as far as you can go and still be in earth. Because in an enclosed flat earth and firmament going south never meets north but God knows you can't keep going south and stay in the earth.
Psalm 103:12 KJV - As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
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Lon
Well-known member
Well think of it this way: West never touches East, but North and South end as soon as they encounter one another. Point: South/North has a measurement: 12,416 miles. East and West? No measurement 'unless' the earth is a plane. Then it is the perimeter (about double North/South at 25k miles).
I STILL like thinking my sins are so far removed from me into infinity that I couldn't possibly see them again. Flat model? Next time around I go around
But again, in a flat enclosed earth, going south never ends just like your east and west, infinity. If earth was flat God could have used north/south or east/west. He chose the words east and west and that keeps it in perspective for mankind because technically, on a globe they go back to where they came from or they stop half way to be farthest away. I think maybe God could have said the east/west analogy to help our understanding. We see through glass darkly now, God hasn't revealed the tip of the iceberg yet. Plus, his ways are past finding out yet we think we know how the universe began, big bang, that we came from monkeys, we have 57 genders now or more, and we know the solar system and galaxies and all the distances away they, their size etc. and the world believes it all (much of it). I'm perplexed, but at least you're taking the time to see my perspective. I can't see doing this past Monday. :e4e:Well think of it this way: West never touches East, but North and South end as soon as they encounter one another. Point: South/North has a measurement: 12,416 miles. East and West? No measurement 'unless' the earth is a plane. Then it is the perimeter (about double North/South at 25k miles).
I STILL like thinking my sins are so far removed from me into infinity that I couldn't possibly see them again. Flat model? Next time around I go around
Romans 11:33-36 KJV - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
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Biblical Flat Earth: Exposing the Idolatry of Natural Philosophy...
https://youtu.be/RelFyJya7ss - 14 minutes - Click this link for full screen - The first 8:30 are the phony fakers
https://youtu.be/RelFyJya7ss - 14 minutes - Click this link for full screen - The first 8:30 are the phony fakers
If anyone wants proof that nobody has seen the curvature of the earth from an airplane. This video above puts a camera on a balloon and gets to 120,000 feet above earth, 24 miles high and it clearly shows no curvature.
The above video is 12 minutes and the good footage starts at about 6:20 -
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