Bernie Sanders, Anti-American!

[ok doser]

So … what … you're suggesting that the poor pay 100% tax and die of starvation? … So they can be approved of by a Bible quote?

did the widow who contributed her mite die of starvation?

 

[Foxfire]

So … what … you're suggesting that the poor pay 100% tax and die of starvation? … So they can be approved of by a Bible quote?

That's one interpretation, I suppose.

Just not the one I was aiming at. Nor is it the point that the passage I quoted was suggesting. :think:

 

[PureX]

That's one interpretation, I suppose.

Just not the one I was aiming at. Nor is it the point that the passage I quoted was suggesting. :think:

I would appreciate if you would explain what you think that quote means, and why you posted it, here.

 

[Nick M]

The purpose of tariffs are to protect American products and jobs from cheap foreign products and labor.

Market forces do protect Americans. The unfortunate thing is we do not have free markets in the US any more.

 

[Nick M]

So … what … you're suggesting that the poor pay 100% tax and die of starvation? … So they can be approved of by a Bible quote?

What are you talking about? Government has no place in feeding the poor. Government exists to punish the wicked. If you are so worried about the poor, why are you on the internet instead of giving away all of your excess income? You lying piece of hypocrite trash.

 

[rexlunae]

Government has no place in feeding the poor.

Sez you. There are many who disagree, and you don't win this just by insisting.

 

[ok doser]

government does indeed have a place in feeding the poor...


...into woodchippers so they can't breed more poor :devil:

 

[ClimateSanity]

Norway, which has nationalized its oil industry (meaning the government owns the means of production) is actually a great argument for Socialism. Makes me think the USA should do the same. Instead of oil profits going to stockholders they would go toward government revenue. Problem is, in the US it would go toward the war machine rather than helping people who need it, like parents of college kids. I doubt Norway spends much on its military.

Before you can socialize an oil company, you have to create one first. Socialism cannot do that. Norway was already wealthy before it adopted socialistic policies. It still uses capitalism to generate the wealth necessary to maintain cradle to grave welfare. The socialism won't create anymore new oil companies though. Socialism is a success in scandavia because of the behavior of its citizens. They don't abuse the medical system. They live more healthy and responsible lives than we do. Government spends very little money on anything other than education and food and infrastructure. In America, the government spends too much money on paying for the irresponsiblity of its citizenry. Socialism will not work in America in its current state. For one thing, it's people are not educated enough to do the type of work most Scandinavians do. There is also no incentive to get an advanced degree in order to make a living with Scandinavian living standards. You must have a willing populace.

 

[ClimateSanity]

I'm not feeling the Bern.

The following link is an American Thinker article called "Bernie's doomed Democratic Socialism". It gives much of the info i just used in my last post.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/03/bernies_doomed_democratic_socialism.html

 

[rocketman]

No one in this country earns an income without the cooperation and participation of everyone else in our society. Therefor, the money we generate as a society, and the income we earn as individuals members of that society, belongs to all of us. The idea that you are some sort of lone ranger, living out on the plains by the effort and skill of your own hands is nonsense. None of us live that way anymore. And none of us are ever going to, again. We now live in a very large, complex, INTER-DEPENDENT society in which each of us plays our part as best we are able, and by which each of us is compensated according to our contribution (or at least this is the goal). None of us "owns" anything without the agreement and cooperation of everyone else.

So stop pretending you are the lone ranger so you can justify your own selfishness. You are not the lone ranger and you never will be. You are one citizen among about 320 MILLION of us, and you are able to live as you do because the rest of us are all doing our part to support the whole complex socio-economic machine. And we all have the right to say how the wealth that machine generates gets distributed.

This is just marxist trash through & through...If you like this marxist ideology & hate your country that much, it's constitution, individual liberty and want to trade it out for marxism & statism why are you not actively seeking to immigrate to where these values are espoused? Really Purex, we have people breaking down the doors of this country to escape these regimes in search of liberty from tyrannical regimes that steal from them to give to the state, deny them the right to speak against it,deny them the individual liberty to stake their own claim in life by the sweat of their brow, if it is your desire to live that way than leave, go chase utopia in a socialist country, I am sure there are many of them that would love to add another drone to the collective to support the state. You socialist types just don't get it, your despotic tyrannical ideology doesn't line up with the principles & ideology of this form of government, America has been wounded by this current rub with socialism but, if you haven't figured it out yet majority of Americans oppose socialism and all it's tenets.

 

[rocketman]

The only ones Inter-Dependent on society to live are the intellectually weak, and physically lazy. The rest of us work independently to better ourselves in one of the few societies left on this planet that allow individual liberty to succeed, or fail on your own accord, even with lazy marxists attempting to steal the fruits of anothers labor under the the false banner of social justice which does not exist outside of a free society.

 

[ok doser]

you know who purex was channeling, don't you?

Spoiler

View attachment 23651

 

[PureX]

Before you can socialize an oil company, you have to create one first. Socialism cannot do that.

This is patently false. We in the United States created all sorts of large utility companies through socialist practices. Most of our water, sewer, electric and communications infrastructures were built by the public, and owned by the public for many decades until the republicans bamboozled us into selling them off to private owners.

When a community wanted to create one of these publicly owned and operated utility companies they simply sold bonds and borrowed money from the federal government and built them. Then the money was paid back from the modest profits generated by the services provided. And this worked very well until the republicans got the idea that if they could convince the public to sell their utilities to private investors, all that profit could be siphoned off while the public would have to pay for the new 'mortgage' on the utility all over again. And like idiots, we let them do it.

So in effect, we built and paid for our own public utility companies, and then let our politicians sell them off for money that we never got a dime of, and now we're paying the new owner's mortgage on the utility companies that we no longer own, while the new owners collect the profits gained from inflated prices that we no longer control, but must pay.

There are very good reasons why companies that provide necessary social services like home energy, communications, transportation, and health care should be publicly owned. Unfortunately, the wealthy elites have been very effective at brainwashing the American public to think that every human enterprise is better and cheaper when it's privately owned. And that's just a flat out lie. But it's a lie that millions of Americans have swallowed hook, line, and sinker, and now will absolutely not reconsider no matter how irrational.

… socialism won't create anymore new oil companies though.

Norway doesn't need any more oil companies. If they did, they could very easily create one. Instead, they are focusing on creating sustainable energy systems. And they lead the world in hydrogen and electric powered vehicles, and wind and solar power generation on a large scale. Instead of building bombs and billion-dollar fighter planes, they invest their nation's capital in education, health care, social services and sustainable business enterprise practices. And the results have been spectacular.

Socialism is a success in scandavia because of the behavior of its citizens. They don't abuse the medical system. They live more healthy and responsible lives than we do. Government spends very little money on anything other than education and food and infrastructure. In America, the government spends too much money on paying for the irresponsiblity of its citizenry. Socialism will not work in America in its current state.

This is complete nonsense as well. Americans are no different from any humans anywhere on Earth. What's different is that modern socialist countries INVEST IN THEIR PEOPLE, rather than in profit-making business investments. And the result is that the quality of life in those countries is far superior to our own. And that's why they are living better and healthier lives. If we would invest in the minds and lives of our citizens, instead of just chasing massive personal profit, our citizens would be just as happy and healthy as theirs. But we don't. Instead of making decisions based on the quality of human life in the U.S., we make all our decisions based on the maximization of profits to capital investors. Which is nothing more than personal greed. We make all our decisions in this country based on greed. And that's why our quality of life is suffering, and people are behaving so hopelessly.

For one thing, it's people are not educated enough to do the type of work most Scandinavians do.

That's exactly why those socialist countries provide free, high quality education for all their citizens, including college.

There is also no incentive to get an advanced degree in order to make a living with Scandinavian living standards.

That's more nonsense. They have just as many doctors, lawyers, scientists, academics etc., as any other nation does. So clearly, they are as incentivized as anyone else to pursue advanced education and careers.

You must have a willing populace.

They are willing to participate in their nation's government, that's true. And they are very happy to pay their high taxes when they can see the great advantages of doing so: like universal access to higher education, universal access to health care, guaranteed unemployment/retirement income, universal access to necessary social services, 6 weeks and more paid vacation per year, 1 year maternity leave for both men and women, universal access to child care, and so on.

If we in the U.S. spent our money on these kinds of social supports, instead of spending trillions of dollars a year on the military and the corporations that supply them, we could do all these things for our people, too. But our military industrial complex is a gigantic money pump for the billionaires club and their army of millionaire politicians and corporate minions, and we the general public are too stupid and frightened to reign them in. So they just keep siphoning off vast quantities of wealth from the nation and the U.S. government, at the expense of the U.S. citizens.

We give more money to Israel to spend on their military than it would cost to send every American kid to college. Meanwhile Israeli kids get to go to their colleges for free! That's what happens when we make all our decisions in this country based on the bottomless greed of a few wealthy elites, rather then on the well-being of the people who live here.

 

[ClimateSanity]

A power generation station does not equal a multi million dollar oil company providing energy to millions of people at an affordable price.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Try building an exxon sized oil company in cuba or Venezuela from scratch.... Impossible.

 

[rexlunae]

Before you can socialize an oil company, you have to create one first. Socialism cannot do that.

Why not? What stops the government from setting something up directly?

Norway was already wealthy before it adopted socialistic policies. It still uses capitalism to generate the wealth necessary to maintain cradle to grave welfare.

There's not a functioning country in the world that's purely one thing or the other. It's always a balance. The question is really where that balance should be struck. The balance that the Scandinavian countries have struck allows for broad security and prosperity, that no other system seems capable of producing.

Socialism is a success in scandavia because of the behavior of its citizens. They don't abuse the medical system. They live more healthy and responsible lives than we do. Government spends very little money on anything other than education and food and infrastructure. In America, the government spends too much money on paying for the irresponsiblity of its citizenry.

So, your thesis is that Scandinavians are just better people than Americans? I have a hard time believing that. I think some of our problems are borne of social insecurity and the hopelessness of an economy designed to preserve privilege and discourage advancement. I don't see any good reason to expect that Americans would abuse the health care system if it were free at point of service. I'm actually more worried health care providers would game the system, but there are ways to design it to avoid that.

Socialism will not work in America in its current state.

So change the state. Doesn't seem that hard to me.

For one thing, it's people are not educated enough to do the type of work most Scandinavians do.

We have one of the most educated workforces in the world. And often, professionals with high-level educations languish in low-paying jobs due to lack of funding.

There is also no incentive to get an advanced degree in order to make a living with Scandinavian living standards. You must have a willing populace.

And yet, people in the US are going to college in huge numbers, getting advanced degrees, and then being unable to find work in their fields. I think you're mistaken about the underlying facts, but the way to draw new people to get education is to make the jobs that demand those skills available.

 

[rocketman]

This is patently false. We in the United States created all sorts of large utility companies through socialist practices. Most of our water, sewer, electric and communications infrastructures were built by the public, and owned by the public for many decades until the republican bamboozled us into selling them off to private owners.

It is quite obvious you and most in this country are absolutely ignorant to what socialism/marxism is. Taxation through the consent of the governed coupled with other monies gained by the central government through international trade, etc. being used for the public good is not socialism. Infrastructure is one of the legitimate functions of a representative republic which this country is, along with a military also being necessary to secure our liberty. Stealing from individuals, over and above these legitimate things to create pseudo equality or fairness are illegitimate functions and inconsistent with this nation & it's constitution.

When a community wanted to create one of these publicly owned and operated utility companies they simply sold bonds and borrowed money from the federal government and built them. And the money was paid back from the modest profits generated by the services provided. And this worked very well until the republics got the idea that if they could convince the public to sell their utilities to private wealthy elites, that profit could be siphoned off while the public has to pay for the new 'mortgage' on the utility all over again.

What utility companies are or were owned by the federal government in the United States Purex? The fact is the number is very, very small and the reason they went under or were dissolved or absorbed by the private sector is that The Government Creates Nothing! It is entrepreneurs like Edison & Westinghouse that pioneered & brought electricity to the masses and yes, so they could get rich...good for them, it is the benefit of a free society to do so. How about telephone, Ma Bell? Well the innovation of mass communication was brought to you again by entrepreneurs that were willing to sweat & toil to bring us where we are today. America is more advanced than any other nation technologically because of individual liberty to dream, work hard, and see the profits of that hard work. Your fantasy of a communistic utopian society ever existing within the U.S. are just that...a fantasy, never happened.

So in effect, we built and paid for our own public utility companies, and then let our politicians sell them off for money that we never got a dime of, and now we're paying the new owner's mortgage on the utility companies that we no longer own, while the new owners collect the profits gained from inflated prices that we no longer control, but must pay.

Prove it? and even if it were true what drove the federal government to privatize these phantom utilities which were create by entrepreneurs? When did the federal government ever master the science of power generation for instance? Did the federal government i.e., the people subsidize the creation of the infrastructure to bring this power to the masses? Yes but, without the science & innovation to run it, or sustain it, the entire infrastructure would cease to exist because The Government Creates Nothing!. Your entire argument is bogus and false.

There are very good reasons why companies that provide necessary social services like home energy, communications, transportation, and health care should be publicly owned.

No, there is a better reason why none of these things are owned by the government, because the government cannot run them, and anywhere they attempt to it is a disaster. You need to find a country more in keeping with your sensibilities because they don't & won't ever exist here in this free society with all us greedy self centered, liberty hungry individuals.

Unfortunately, the republicans have been very effective at brainwashing the American public to think that every human enterprise is better and cheaper when it's privately owned. And that is just a flat out lie. But it's a lie that millions of Americans have swallowed hook, line, and sinker, and now will absolutely not reconsider no matter how irrational.

Oh please! the republicans? how about every patriot since the revolutionary war including the founders which penned the constitution. The only brainwashing happening in this nation has been from left wing subversives such as yourself who have attempted since this nations founding to undermine his nation with the notion of ushering in the failed form of governance called socialism/marxism/communism they are all closely related and all equally oppressive in their mature state. This nation was founded on Individual liberty, Property rights, the right to defend oneself, etc. these are not republican values they are constitutional & American values...it is yours that are foreign and unAmerican...

The socialism won't create anymore new oil companies though. Norway doesn't need any more oil companies. If they did, they could very easily create one. Instead, they are focusing on creating sustainable energy systems. And they lead the world in hydrogen and electric powered vehicles, and wind and solar power generation on a large scale. Instead of building bombs and billion-dollar fighter planes, they invest their nation's capital in education, health care, social services and sustainable business enterprise practices. And the result have been spectacular.

There you go...immigrate to Norway, you could can sardines for the state and be the benefactor of all those utopian fantasies you pine for..but, you should know going in that Norway Is Not a socialist country even though that retard Bernie keeps touting it as one. You need to get educated in what socialism is, what Bernie is trying to sell is slavery to the state sorry, not interested.

This is complete nonsense. Americans are no different from people anywhere on Earth. What's different is that modern socialist countries INVEST IN THEIR PEOPLE, rather than in profit-making.

Unmitigated crap, as I have demonstrated above what you & Bernie tout as socialist is not socialism. Yes, they have socialized aspects of their society but, socialist countries do not invest in their people, their people are in abject slavery to the state with no say in how their government functions, it is totalitarian, fascist, & despotic. You show your ignorance to the term every time you post.

And the result is that the quality of life in those countries is far superior to our own. And that's why they are living better and healthier lives.

False! The only ones living better in these countries are the elite ruling class, the rest are slaves of the state and those that speak against it get a bullet or stuffed away in a gulag/prison, or re-education camp if you prefer.

If we would invest in the minds and lives of our citizens, instead of just chasing personal profit, our citizens would be just as happy and healthy as theirs. But we don't. Instead of making decision based on the quality of human life in the U.S., we make all our decisions based on the maximization of profits to capital investors. Which is nothing more than greed. We make all our decisions in this country based on greed. And that's why our quality of life is suffering.

It is greed!, and it is that greed that has produced the most technologically advanced society on earth, has spawned some of the greatest advancements of humankind as well all in the name of personal profit to the individuals who gave birth to them. It is the human spirit to compete, to strive for more & better... what you want is to glean the benefits without any investment of your own which is just laziness & covetousness. If you want more it takes effort and those that put out more effort deserve to reap the rewards of their labor to get it...why do you feel you are owed something you have not worked for?

That's exactly why those socialist countries provide free, high quality education for all their citizens, including college.
That's more no sense. They have just as many doctors, lawyers, scientists, academics as any other nation does. So clearly, they are as incentivized as anyone else.
They are willing to participate in their nation's government, that's true. And they are very happy to pay their high taxes when they can see the great advantages of doing so: like universal access to higher education, universal access to health care, guaranteed unemployment/retirement income, universal access to necessary social services, 6 weeks and more paid vacation per year, 1 year maternity leave for both men and women, universal access to child care, and so on.

Until you can define socialism, and what it really is, than it is pointless to point out the various errors in what you are posting here...it is just drivel.

If we in the U.S. spent our money on these kinds of social supports, instead of spending trillions of dollars a year on the military, we could do all these things for our people, too. But out military industrial complex is giant money pump for the billionaires club and their army millionaire politicians and corporate minions, and we're too stupid and frightened reign them in. So they just keep siphoning off vast quantities of wealth from the U.S. government at the expense of the U.S. citizens.

You are aware that the military under OUR form of government is a legitimate expenditure of public monies, no? I would also point to the millions that are employed in this nation from those monies in the manufacture & support of this legitimate government function which also comes back to the government in the form of taxes generated through income, payroll, corporate taxes. What you want is Free Stuff! goodies supplied on the backs of the citizenry. How about you pay for what you want with your money and I will pay for what I want with mine but, having a strong military is in the best interests of the nation which the constitution demands, the rest are just wants.

We give more money to Israel to spend on their military than it would cost to send every American kid to college. While Israeli kids get to go to their colleges for free!

Given that these colleges are full of rich overeducated braindead liberal ideologues spewing the same "I hate America" rhetoric as you do I can say I am glad that people have to pay for that indoctrination themselves.

That's what happens when we make all our decisions in this country based on the bottomless greed of a few wealthy elites, rather then on the well-being of the people who live here.

Your well being is your responsibility not the citizenry's of this country, get off your lazy butt and make something of yourself instead of complaining why someone has more than you do, chances are they worked for it.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Try building an exxon sized oil company in cuba or Venezuela from scratch.... Impossible.

Oil company....... Not station....quite a difference.

 

[patrick jane]

Bernie Sanders is speaking at Affton HS in St. Louis tomorrow - 10 minutes away from me

 

[rocketman]

Bernie Sanders is speaking at Affton HS in St. Louis tomorrow - 10 minutes away from me

Maybe "Black Lives Matter" will make a cameo...:chuckle: