BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[RightIdea]

Presby, I'm talking about scripture.

Scriptures which, if your view is correct, say that God is a chronic liar and deceiver. But if the Open view is correct, God is righteous, perfectly honest.

So, why would you believe in God as a liar? How can you believe anything He says, at all? How can you trust in Him, have faith in Him, believe anything He says, including your promise of eternal life? I really want to know.

 

[KS Presby]

I have read the open theist scriptures. I am not convinced.

Do you not realize that God is bigger than you can comprehend, that his actions and seeming "changes of mind" really AREN'T such, but were ordained from the beginning of time?

Scripture is written so man can understand, and sometimes that involves simplifying the way things are phrased.

When God changes his mind in something, I find no reason to believe it literally means he changed his mind because how could a God not be able to make up His mind and be right the first time? If he has to correct himself later, that isn't any sort of god I want to follow.

I want to follow a God who knows what the heck He is doing from the very beginning, not blindly deciding actions in the dark.

God is sovereign, and sovereignty by necessity implies authority and power. A sovereign is in the know about things, not kept in the dark.

I would like some evidence open theism is not just another theological fad of this modern era. Prove to me it is historical and Biblical.

Presby, I'm talking about scripture.

Scriptures which, if your view is correct, say that God is a chronic liar and deceiver. But if the Open view is correct, God is righteous, perfectly honest.

So, why would you believe in God as a liar? How can you believe anything He says, at all? How can you trust in Him, have faith in Him, believe anything He says, including your promise of eternal life? I really want to know.

 

[RightIdea]

Presby, I don't think you understand what I'm referring to. I'm going to create a thread on this issue, and I hope you'll come by and check it out.

And there's no such thing as "Open Theist scriptures." It's God's word, not ours.


What do you mean "prove it is historical?" You mean you won't believe something unless a lot of fallible dead mean believed it? Worldly tradition? Majority rules? "Orthodox?" Oh, you are Greek orthodox? I didn't realize this...

The thread will likely be called "Settled View: God a liar." And I do say with sincerity, I hope you'll at least stop by briefly and see what I'm referring to. And if I"m full of it, then let me know. Fair enough? But what I have to say about this is probably something you've never heard. Hey, we'll see.

 

[drbrumley]

I have read the open theist scriptures. I am not convinced.

Good for you.

Do you not realize that God is bigger than you can comprehend, that his actions and seeming "changes of mind" really AREN'T such, but were ordained from the beginning of time?

I know God is bigger as you say. You are the one limiting God.

Scripture is written so man can understand, and sometimes that involves simplifying the way things are phrased.

No man can understand scripture WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's guidance.And I submit to you orthodoxy is not Holy Spirit driven.

When God changes his mind in something, I find no reason to believe it literally means he changed his mind because how could a God not be able to make up His mind and be right the first time? If he has to correct himself later, that isn't any sort of god I want to follow.

Rather shallow view of God you got there pal.

I want to follow a God who knows what the heck He is doing from the very beginning, not blindly deciding actions in the dark.

Rather shallow view of God you got there pal.

God is sovereign, and sovereignty by necessity implies authority and power. A sovereign is in the know about things, not kept in the dark.

Thanks Sherlock. We know this already.

I would like some evidence open theism is not just another theological fad of this modern era. Prove to me it is historical and Biblical.

Read the debate. Why would ANYONE want to talk with you about with your condensending attitude?

 

[godrulz]

This should not be an issue.

Open theism is heresy.

Simple as that. That this is even being discussed among Christians shows just how far the modern church has fallen from orthodox Christianity.

We need to once again return to the "faith once delivered to the saints," which does have God know everything.

Issues of foreknowledge, time/eternity, predestination, free will, etc. have been debated for centuries. Jude was referring to the essential Gospel (Deity and resurrection of Christ, etc.) as opposed to Doceticism, incipient Gnosticism, antinomianism, etc. He was not referring to the subtle theological wrestlings of subsequent church history.

The Open View affirms God's great attributes, but understands the nature of creation (open vs closed) and the future differently. God knows everything logically knowable. It does not deny essential truth/Gospel. We all desire to accurately, biblically represent God and His ways.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=506

 

[godrulz]

Sir, I will take Scripture anyday over your new and man-made innovation called open theism.

I will take what has been the orthodox position of the church from day one because it is proven in Scripture over your heresy.

You are rejecting a straw man caricature of the Open view and do not clearly understand it. Many anti-Open books merely spout Calvinism without wrestling with the biblical and philosophical issues. They are just as opposed to Arminianism.

 

[godrulz]

I have read the open theist scriptures. I am not convinced.

Do you not realize that God is bigger than you can comprehend, that his actions and seeming "changes of mind" really AREN'T such, but were ordained from the beginning of time?

Scripture is written so man can understand, and sometimes that involves simplifying the way things are phrased.

When God changes his mind in something, I find no reason to believe it literally means he changed his mind because how could a God not be able to make up His mind and be right the first time? If he has to correct himself later, that isn't any sort of god I want to follow.

I want to follow a God who knows what the heck He is doing from the very beginning, not blindly deciding actions in the dark.

God is sovereign, and sovereignty by necessity implies authority and power. A sovereign is in the know about things, not kept in the dark.

I would like some evidence open theism is not just another theological fad of this modern era. Prove to me it is historical and Biblical.

Sovereignty does not have to be meticulous control. Providential control based on omnicompetence to respond to any contingency is far more glorious and challenging. God is not a cosmic control freak. He is more like a cosmic chess master who does not have to point a gun forcing opponent's bad moves. He responds to contingencies. A deterministic universe would undermine love and relationship.

 

[Turbo]

Do you not realize that God is bigger than you can comprehend, that his actions and seeming "changes of mind" really AREN'T such, but were ordained from the beginning of time?

Scripture is written so man can understand, and sometimes that involves simplifying the way things are phrased.

When God changes his mind in something, I find no reason to believe it literally means he changed his mind because how could a God not be able to make up His mind and be right the first time? If he has to correct himself later, that isn't any sort of god I want to follow.

You assert that God is bigger than we can comprehend, yet you think you have Him all figured out.

You assert that scripture is simplified, but saying the opposite of what one means is not a simplification.

You assert that God is utterly incapable of change, and to make that simpler and easier for us to understand... God says again and again that He changes? :dizzy:

Why is it that Calvinists claim that God is incapable of communicating with us clearly saying what He means, but they have no trouble expressing what God really means?

(Don't you believe that God predetermined our thoughts, that whether we understand or don't understand something is ordained by Him?)

I want to follow a God who knows what the heck He is doing from the very beginning, not blindly deciding actions in the dark.

Nice strawman.

I would like some evidence open theism is not just another theological fad of this modern era. Prove to me it is historical and Biblical.

I doubt that your request is sincere, but if it is... just read BRX, and stay tuned for the second half.

 

[KS Presby]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/thesame.htm

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." -- Hebrews 13:8

God is the first and last, the eternal, perfect from the beginning. There is no need for the Almighty to change.

 

[Turbo]

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." -- Hebrews 13:8

God is the first and last, the eternal, perfect from the beginning. There is no need for the Almighty to change.

Why do you think that verse trumps the dozens that say that God changes/repents?

Open Theists recognize that God does not change in his righteous character.

God the Son became flesh according to John 1:14. Became is a change word.

Do you believe that God the Son has always been flesh? (A yes or no would be great.)

 

[Z Man]

This should not be an issue.

Open theism is heresy.

Simple as that. That this is even being discussed among Christians shows just how far the modern church has fallen from orthodox Christianity.

We need to once again return to the "faith once delivered to the saints," which does have God know everything.

Amen brother! :thumb:

And with this one post, you've definitly stepped into the viper's nest! :chuckle:

Almost everyone on this website believe in the heresy of the Open View, thanks in part to radicals like Greg Boyd and Bob Enyart.

 

[Z Man]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You sound like a freakin' twelve year old.

The teachings and traditions of man (i.e. orthodoxy) do not matter to me at all unless they can be shown to be both Biblical and of sound reason.

:ha:

I've disproved your heretical view with Scriptures, over and over again.

 

[RightIdea]

Why do you think that verse trumps the dozens that say that God changes/repents?

Open Theists recognize that God does not change in his righteous character.

God the Son became flesh according to John 1:14. Became is a change word.

Do you believe that God the Son has always been flesh? (A yes or no would be great.)

Exactly. God changes His mind because His righteousness and faithfulness are unchanging! Otherwise, God is a liar, if the settled view is true.

Presby, please come check out my new thread, here, to see exactly why!

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22386

 

[godrulz]

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/thesame.htm

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." -- Hebrews 13:8

God is the first and last, the eternal, perfect from the beginning. There is no need for the Almighty to change.

Lk. 2:52 Jesus grew and changed in some ways, but not in other ways.

Jesus is not static. He is dynamic and changes in His relations, experiences, thoughts, feelings, and actions.

He does not change His essential character and attributes.

The incarnation was a change in the Word/Son. He was not always flesh.

He is the same in His faithfulness. This does not mean He is absolutely immutable or timeless.

 

[Clete]

You sound like a freakin' twelve year old.

Nice. Is that supposed to prevent me from speaking the truth? It won't.

:ha:

I've disproved your heretical view with Scriptures, over and over again.

You are a delusional liar Z Man. You've proved nothing of the sort and you know it. You have intentionally, repeatedly, and openly disputed the validity of reason itself. How could you have possibly proven anything if you discard reason in favor of your belief? You can't and haven't nor will you ever until you submit yourself to that which is BOTH Biblical and of sound reason.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Delmar]

The fact of the perfect prediction of Peter's denial, and the many other fulfilled prophecies from Jesus, and in the whole Bible, is our leading indicator that somehow He can!
Or, He is bringing to pass all that He declared for the future. Either way, we have an amazing God who is beyond our full understanding.

Number 2 is correct, and yes God is beyond our full understanding but the Bible shows the story of a God that wants to relate to us and be known by us. So it is logical to believe that God is not beyond our basic understanding.

 

[Z Man]

You are a delusional liar Z Man. You've proved nothing of the sort and you know it. You have intentionally, repeatedly, and openly disputed the validity of reason itself. How could you have possibly proven anything if you discard reason in favor of your belief? You can't and haven't nor will you ever until you submit yourself to that which is BOTH Biblical and of sound reason.

Clete,

Time and time again, I have presented several passages from Scripture to support my views, and yet, the best you can come up with everytime is either with a personal attack against me by calling me names (liar, blasphemer, insane, etc.), or, by saying that I'm illogical.

You have yet to directly, truthfully, and maturely refute any Scriptures that I have brought forth to support my claims...

 

[jeremiah]

Number 2 is correct, and yes God is beyond our full understanding but the Bible shows the story of a God that wants to relate to us and be known by us. So it is logical to believe that God is not beyond our basic understanding.

These verses from Phillipians came straight into my mind as I read your post to me. Phil. 3 10- 14. "That I may know Him and the power of His Resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has laid hold of me.
Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead.
I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Through Jesus and His suffering, His death, burial, and Resurrection, God has grabbed our attention. He has layed hold of us. He has related to us according to our basic understanding. Our main goal now, is to lay hold of God according to Jesus, and the power of His Resurrection.
While some people can go temporarily insane, with the main goal of winning a debate, and proving themselves right before others, fortunately cooler heads, like yours and mine,
can remain focused on the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
You may not have actually intended to, but I thank you for bringing these beautiful verses back to my mind, and thus reminding me of my relationship and my basic understanding of our Loving God.
Does God know our entire future or not. You and I may disagree, but most importantly we have a future in Him.

Jeremiah 29: 11

 

[KS Presby]

Z, this is the first time I have visited TOL in several years. It used to have lots of solid guys faithful to the orthodox faith that has been taught from the beginning of the church. I don't know when it turned into a group of people following theological fads invented in the modern era, but it is sad.

 

[Z Man]

Z, this is the first time I have visited TOL in several years. It used to have lots of solid guys faithful to the orthodox faith that has been taught from the beginning of the church. I don't know when it turned into a group of people following theological fads invented in the modern era, but it is sad.

Very...