BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[SOTK]

No, SOTK, that's the typical Calvinist interpretation. Please don't take it personally or get mad at me. I am not lying. Calvinists typically teach that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad to us, is part of God's meticulous plan that has been predestined long before the foundation of the world.

I'm not mad at you. The only thing I take personally is when a point I have made is overlooked and immediately turned into a closed-view/open-view argument. That gets old.

Regarding predestination, I don't completely deny it nor do I completely accept it. That is, I don't completely accept it in the terms which Open Theists describe it. Let me post something from another thread of mine:

"Irresistable Grace does not mean that God does violence to man's spirit by forcing him to do something he does not want to do. (He did not force Judas to do what he did. Judas acted freely, according to the good pleasure of Satan his master, by doing what his dead human spirit, his sin-corrupted soul, dictated he should do. That is precisely why Christ, knowing whom He had chosen to be with Him day after day during his three and on-half years of public ministry, chose Judas.) Judas, without coercion, fulfilled the will of God." Taken from the book TULIP: The Five Points of Calvinism in the Light of Scripture by Herbert Spencer

God allows men to freely serve Satan in their spiritually dead state. Allowing unregenerate men to freely entertain their dead human spirit, can bring about the will of God. God is not the author of evil. Unregenerate men are the author of evil.

Will you stand with us in opposition to those who accuse God of planning every tragic event and wicked act, and try to correct their misrepresentations or our Lord?
Please?

I will stand with you in opposition to those that run around denying our Lord and who are morally corrupt (pagans, heathens, and the like). As I have stated numerous times, that seems awefully more important than fighting with you over this. We are both Christians, brothers, even if we disagree on this issue.

This is a theology debate site. God_Is_Truth was just pointing out the conclusions that Calvinist theology logically leads to. Maybe you could point out how God_Is_Truth's statement doesn't fit within your worldview instead of just calling him a jerk (along with a lot of other people including me).

Yes, I know it is, and I know that subjects like the one which we are discussing will continue to be brought up again and again. I'm okay with that and will, at times, have something to add to the discussion. I just hate the ugliness which can arise on both sides of the argument.

God_Is_Truth knew what I was getting at in my post. Instead of addressing the meaning of my post, he decided to turn it into a closed/open view argument and act like a jerk. I do not think that him or you are jerks because you are Open Theists. That wasn't my intention.

Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16​

No, Turbo, you are not my enemy and never will be. In terms of truth, we obviously share different meanings of truth when it comes to this subject. How could you be my enemy because of this?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

God_Is_Truth knew what I was getting at in my post. Instead of addressing the meaning of my post, he decided to turn it into a closed/open view argument and act like a jerk.

i was attempting to show how what you said didn't line up with your declared theology (calvinism). i don't believe i acted like a jerk however. what part came off as such? no matter, i am sorry you took it as me being a jerk, but please believe me that it was nothing i intentionally tried to do.

 

[Z Man]

Clete,

Time and time again, I have presented several passages from Scripture to support my views, and yet, the best you can come up with everytime is either with a personal attack against me by calling me names (liar, blasphemer, insane, etc.), or, by saying that I'm illogical.

You have yet to directly, truthfully, and maturely refute any Scriptures that I have brought forth to support my claims...

You are lying again Z Man and you know it. Pathetic.

I'm nothing if not consistent.

Thanks for proving my point! :thumb:

 

[Z Man]

Calvinists typically teach that everything that happens, whether it seems good or bad to us, is part of God's meticulous plan that has been predestined long before the foundation of the world.

When I was very young I was taught that all things, good and bad, were predestined by God. All murders, All rapes, All kidnappings...the most henious acts that one could ever imagine, I was taught happened because God planned for it to and orchestrated every tiny detail of the crime.

Can both of you honestly say that there are no accounts of God orchastrating / ordaining / planned / predestined calamity in the Bible?

The problem you guys have with the SV is that when we say God predestined something, you automatically assume that it means God actually commited the act. For example, if I was to say God ordained the murder of an individual by another, you would think that what I said was that God forced one person to kill another (or God directly controlled the actions of the murderer, like a puppet on strings) and then turns around and says that it was their fault. However, what I'm really saying is that yes, God ordained that the murder take place at a specific time and location, and ordained that John be the victim, and Joe be the murderer, BUT (and that's a big but), the intentions of the murderer were truly his own. The actions he committed were truly done by the murderer, and were planned by the murderer, and were desired to be carried out by the murderer. God didn't force Joe to kill John against Joe's will, but ordained that Joe kill John as Joe had planned according to his own heart and desire.

God's never responsible for our sins. Let's please put that false assumption concerning the Calvinist view to rest!

 

[SOTK]

God's never responsible for our sins. Let's please put that false assumption concerning the Calvinist view to rest!

Exactly. That's what I meant when I stated that I do not agree with the Open Viewer's interpretation of predestination. When has a Calvinist ever stated here that God is responsible for evil and/or the evil acts/sins of man?

 

[Z Man]

Exactly. That's what I meant when I stated that I do not agree with the Open Viewer's interpretation of predestination. When has a Calvinist ever stated here that God is responsible for evil and/or the evil acts/sins of man?

Never. It's a strawman built by the OV'ers because it's easier to refute than the numerous Scriptures we use to support our view.

 

[Delmar]

Exactly. That's what I meant when I stated that I do not agree with the Open Viewer's interpretation of predestination. When has a Calvinist ever stated here that God is responsible for evil and/or the evil acts/sins of man?

Is predestination causal ? yes or no ?

Yes.

Charles Spurgeon, the London pastor from 100 years ago, once said,

I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes – that every particle of spray that dashes against the steamboat has its orbit, as well as the sun in the heavens – that the chaff from the hand of the winnower is steered as the stars in their courses. The creeping of an aphid over the rosebud is as much fixed as the march of the devastating pestilence – the fall of . . . leaves from a poplar is as fully ordained as the tumbling of an avalanche.​

When Spurgeon was challenged that this is nothing but fatalism and stoicism, he replied,

What is fate? Fate is this – Whatever is, must be. But there is a difference between that and Providence. Providence says, Whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. . . . There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man.​

I won't hold you responsible for the words of other Calvinists but to say that every thing that happens is caused by God, then say that God is not responsible for the things he caused makes no sense.

 

[Z Man]

I won't hold you responsible for the words of other Calvinists but to say that every thing that happens is caused by God, then say that God is not responsible for the things he caused makes no sense.

Deardelmar,

The only way God could be responsible for a person's actions is if the person did not do them, or was forced to do them. But what I believe, and I humbly assert that MOST Calvinists believe, is that God does not force people to sin. He ordains it, but the people sin because they want to, not because God forces them. Here's a Scriptural example:

2 Samuel 24:1-4, 10-17
Once again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he caused David to harm them by taking a census. "Go and count the people of Israel and Judah," the LORD told him. So the king said to Joab, the commander of his army, "Take a census of all the people in the land – from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south – so that I may know how many people there are." But Joab replied to the king, "May the LORD your God let you live until there are a hundred times as many people in your kingdom as there are now! But why do you want to do this?" But the king insisted that they take the census, so Joab and his officers went out to count the people of Israel.

But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing." The next morning the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, who was David's seer. This was the message: "Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I will give you three choices. Choose one of these punishments, and I will do it.'" So Gad came to David and asked him, "Will you choose three years of famine throughout the land, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three days of severe plague throughout your land? Think this over and let me know what answer to give the LORD." "This is a desperate situation!" David replied to Gad. "But let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great. Do not let me fall into human hands." So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel that morning, and it lasted for three days. Seventy thousand people died throughout the nation. But as the death angel was preparing to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented and said to the angel, "Stop! That is enough!" At that moment the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. When David saw the angel, he said to the LORD, "I am the one who has sinned and done wrong! But these people are innocent – what have they done? Let your anger fall against me and my family." ​

God 'moved' David to take the census, and yet, David knew he was responsible for it, and God punished him! This clearly tells us that God does cause everything to happen, and yet, we are still responsible for our actions. Do you agree?

 

[Delmar]

I can't agree or disagree untill I figure out what was going on here. Why was it a sin to take a census?
What version of the Bible are you quoting fro by the way?

 

[Z Man]

I can't agree or disagree untill I figure out what was going on here. Why was it a sin to take a census?

Does it matter? Whether you find out why it was a sin to take the census or not, the point of the matter is, God moved David to take it, and then punished him for it.

What version of the Bible are you quoting fro by the way?

NLT - New Living Translation

The version doesn't matter either. Either way, the fact still remains that God moved David to take the census, then punished him for it.

Agree?

 

[Delmar]

Does it matter? Whether you find out why it was a sin to take the census or not, the point of the matter is, God moved David to take it, and then punished him for it.

NLT - New Living Translation

The version doesn't matter either. Either way, the fact still remains that God moved David to take the census, then punished him for it.

Agree?

Since I am pretty sure that taking a just taking a census is not a sin. So I'm trying to figure out why it was a sin in this case and whether God really punished him for taking the census or if that is simply what David thought was the reason.

 

[Delmar]

I have skimmed 2 Samuel 21-25 and have not figured out what is going on yet. I guess I have more reading to do. In the meantime does anybody here know what is going on here? Why was God so ticked off at David here?

 

[Z Man]

Why was God so ticked off at David here?

Because he took the census! The same census God made him do!

2 Samuel 24:10
But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing."


The conclusion is inevitable Deardelmar; even though God ordains everything, we are still responsible. This passage eradicates the false view held by so many Open Viewers that the Calvinists view makes God responsible for sin.

 

[Delmar]

Because he took the census! The same census God made him do!

2 Samuel 24:10
But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing."


The conclusion is inevitable Deardelmar; even though God ordains everything, we are still responsible. This passage eradicates the false view held by so many Open Viewers that the Calvinists view makes God responsible for sin.

It also makes it clear that taking a census is inherently evil. Who knew?

 

[Z Man]

Deardelmar,

So what conclusion have you arrived at from studying 2 Sam. 24? I'm interested to know. Will you ignore it, and go on believing that it's insane for God to not be held responsible for ordaining everything, or will you give in to the mighty truth of God's Word?

 

[Delmar]

Deardelmar,

So what conclusion have you arrived at from studying 2 Sam. 24? I'm interested to know. Will you ignore it, and go on believing that it's insane for God to not be held responsible for ordaining everything, or will you give in to the mighty truth of God's Word?

I'm not ducking you but I worked a 14 hour day today and I have another tomorrow as well as Thursday. I might get. a little free time on Wednesday but don't hold your breath.
Oh BTW I gave in to the mighty truth of God's Word 33 years ago!

 

[Delmar]

Deardelmar,

So what conclusion have you arrived at from studying 2 Sam. 24? I'm interested to know. Will you ignore it, and go on believing that it's insane for God to not be held responsible for ordaining everything, or will you give in to the mighty truth of God's Word?

Ok I think I have found an important clue.
2 Sam. 24:9 Joab reported the number of people to the king. There were 800,000 men of military age in Israel and 500,000 in Judah.
It seems by the details of report that the reason for the census was that David wanted to know how big of an army he could raise. Since it is not logical to believe that taking a census is inherently evil my conclusion would be that David's sin was his lack of faith. David, the boy who by faith slew the bear, the lion, and the mighty warrior Goliath has grown up to be the king who puts his faith in the strength of his army rather than trusting in God! It seems that God moved him to take the census to show him how his faith had degenerated from the days of his youth, To show David the wickedness that his heart had embraced!

 

[Z Man]

Ok I think I have found an important clue.
2 Sam. 24:9 Joab reported the number of people to the king. There were 800,000 men of military age in Israel and 500,000 in Judah.
It seems by the details of report that the reason for the census was that David wanted to know how big of an army he could raise. Since it is not logical to believe that taking a census is inherently evil my conclusion would be that David's sin was his lack of faith. David, the boy who by faith slew the bear, the lion, and the mighty warrior Goliath has grown up to be the king who puts his faith in the strength of his army rather than trusting in God! It seems that God moved him to take the census to show him how his faith had degenerated from the days of his youth, To show David the wickedness that his heart had embraced!

Ok, great. But it still remains that God made David take the census. And yet, David was responsible. Think about it; this very notion destroys the open view. The open view declares that God cannot impose upon man's free will, or that God knows the future. But you just stated otherwise in your above quote! This passage is just one example of many that show God holding men responsible for things He had ordained long before.

Deardelmar, earlier you said:

"to say that every thing that happens is caused by God, then say that God is not responsible for the things he caused makes no sense."​

Will you now conclude that yes, it does make sense to say that God ordains everything and we are still responsible at the same time?

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

 

[Rimi]

Proverbs 16:9 . . . . "A man's HEART plans his way, but the Lord directs his STEPS." Exactly. Sure. God gets involved but He doesn't decide what the man will do nor does this say that God knows that the man will do.

Man chooses evil, so God says, "You gonna be evil, I'll help you hang yourself!"

Man chooses good, so God says, "You gonna be good, I'll help you be the best!"

God can and does influence, but it's still man's choice and God doesn't know what that choice is till it's made known.

 

[Gerlad]

Hey,

While Dr. Lamerson may not be up to the task of debating Bob Enyart, Hilston certainly is. Check out his detailed refutations of Enyart's specious arguments at the link found here.

JB