Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[novice]

Um, Novice, Paul wanted to use a word for "sword" because he was using a metaphor. a short sword is not used for executions. It was worn as a symbol of authority by emperors, etc. You are an extremely reactionary person. It is a huge claim to make that someone else should repent in this instance, especially when you are falsely accusing me of being someone I am not.

Wow... what can I say to that? :chuckle:

Below are all the possible meanings from the Greek.

- relatively short sword (or even dagger) used for cutting and stabbing
- refers to the event of killing or slaughter:
- death by violence or execution —
- ‘war, fighting, conflict.’
- ‘to kill with war
- literal meaning of ‘broad sword’

 

[novice]

What does it matter? I'm not going to tell you what commentaries I am reading because you are all already so close-minded and sadistic that nothing I say is going to even come close to convincing you. Instead, you would rather attack each other. Novice, you even said that you viewed this board as a swordfight. I'm sickened...goodbye.

:wave2:

 

[novice]

Where did you get that from?!?!?

Probably the same professor that told him that murderers should be forgiven and then given baby-sitting jobs. :rotfl:

 

[Army of One]

What does it matter? I'm not going to tell you what commentaries I am reading because you are all already so close-minded and sadistic that nothing I say is going to even come close to convincing you. Instead, you would rather attack each other. Novice, you even said that you viewed this board as a swordfight. I'm sickened...goodbye.

Alright, bye.

BTW, when you get a chance you might want to read Acts 12:1,2

Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.​

Can you guess what Greek word is used for the "sword" in this verse (which James was executed with)? (hint: it's the same one that is used in Romans 13:4).

 

[Eisley]

I never said the word did not actually mean "sword". Here I've copied text for you, against my better judgement:

"The sword (machaira) in 13:4 refers to the small dagger used by the police to ensure compliance (Yoder, 206). There is nothing said here about the state’s right or duty to exercise capital punishment. Until the fifth century, this text was understood as a call to peacemaking in relation to the government; only after the rise of imperial Christianity was the text reversed and used as the basis for a Christian theology of the state and as a warrant for the state’s use of lethal force in executing justice"

 

[Army of One]

I never said the word did not actually mean "sword".

No, but you certainly stated that this sword was not used for executions but rather was "worn as a symbol of authority by emperors, etc." Acts 12:1,2 demonstrates that your statement is not factual.

 

[DaringlyStupid]

Um, Novice, Paul wanted to use a word for "sword" because he was using a metaphor. a short sword is not used for executions. It was worn as a symbol of authority by emperors, etc.

So what you're saying is, emperors, etc. would wear these swords but not actually use them? They'd bear these swords in vain?

 

[Eisley]

hmm, you all certainly got defensive over different definitions of the word sword, but no one was interested in answering my question:

What do we all think of Matthew 5:21-22: (ESV) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire"

Do you believe that those who are angry or say, 'you fool', should also receive the DP, then, based on this?

 

[DaringlyStupid]

Maybe you-- er, theo should ask Turbo that question in round 4. Maybe you'll stump him!

 

[Eisley]

wait, are you Turbo? Oh my goodness, I can't believe you have different usernames! I bet you use them all to vote for yourself, don't you Turbo?

 

[DaringlyStupid]

:rotfl: We're all Turbo at this site. (Except for you and your other usernames.) I even voted for theo a few times in the pole, just to throw you off!

 

[Eisley]

wow, this is hilarious. let's all just keep insulting and each other and then we'll never learn anything from each other!! ahhh, what else should I have expected from the internet. So how're you guys doing today?

 

[novice]

So how're you guys doing today?

Shouldn't you be working on your 4th round post? :think:

 

[death2impiety]

Turbo here!

Erm.. I mean d2i :noid:

T-man you are really kicking some serious behind. I'm seriously wondering how committed to Truth T_V actually is... Not only is your argument Biblical, logical and perfectly cogent but you've clearly pointed out the inconsistancies of his own view on more than one occasion. If he still doesn't get it, he's reading with his eyes closed.

:up: keep it up, right up.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Why Turbo is winning….

1. theo_victis has made his main argument against the death penalty that we should forgive. The idea being that if you forgive someone, you should not execute them. However his main point has now completely blown up in his face as Turbo has pointed out that Theo doesn’t want total forgiveness – after all, he wants to imprison. This leaves his main argument defenseless against the “hypocritical” charge. That Theo’s main argument isn’t even a consistent point is clearly his biggest problem at this point of the debate.

2. theo_victis main rebuttal to capital punishment as the Bible spells it out is that there were for Israel many deeds which warranted capital punishment. He asserts that this was an OT thing. Turbo’s redirect was reasonable to point out that he needs only defend it for murder, kidnapping, rape, and other crimes to show its merits and does not have to accept it for all possible crimes, sins, or symbolic infractions. He also wisely showed the NT support for the death penalty which Theo has as of yet been unable to fully counter.

3. Theo’s objections to the usage of the word “government” come off as just silly. Of course, Turbo is not supporting Christians to take the law into their own hands – and that would hardly be considered “Capital Punishment” but rather vigilantism anyway. It seems disingenuous to talk about Capitol Punishment as a means of punishing criminals and then object to the usage of the word “government”.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Probably the same professor that told him that murderers should be forgiven and then given baby-sitting jobs. :rotfl:

That's the point in Seminary when you start asking for your money back. When you have a professor who clearly doesn't know right from wrong, that becomes class cancellation time.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

What do we all think of Matthew 5:21-22: (ESV) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire"

Do you believe that those who are angry or say, 'you fool', should also receive the DP, then, based on this?

You fool , the Bible does not support the death penalty for people who say "you fool", nor for those that lust in their heart. The government has no business trying to divine whether someone is "angry" nor should they punish someone who is.

Jesus was speaking to how people should behave in his sermon, he was not directly talking to the how the government should behave.

He goes on to say:

Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.​

Notice not only that Jesus is distinguishing how people should behave with how the government should behave, but that in Jesus' world view the government does not forgive - a position which undermines most of your arguments to this point.

 

[Stripe]

i wonder how this debate would have gone had turbos (quote-unquote) "opponent" not claimed to be a christian ...

the debate name might have required adjustment...

 

[jhodgeiii]

These accusations of posting under multiple accounts have been hillarious (but not particularly convincing)!!

 

[jhodgeiii]

Turbo is solidly winning this debate at this point. Theo, by resting his main argument on forgiveness, must convincingly answer why we should even punish criminals in the first place. I would not accept "to protect society" as an answer since society's "comfort zone" is not how we should be reasoning this ethical debate.

When we forgive, we are pardoning one for their offense, hence, giving up any claim of requital. We were all debtors before we received Christ, yet God has perfectly forgiven us--we're not being thrown into a rehabilitative holding tank after we die before we go to be with the Lord. Thus, how can Theo justify imparting this very sentence on a convicted criminal whom he feels society (civilians and their rule of law) should forgive?

I await his 4th response. It really needs be a good one.