Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Phantastes]

Les Miserables is French. :flamer:

Need I say more???

Knight: Your dodging of the main argument at hand completely shows the lack of intelligence you have as a whole. Not to mention your cliche and stereotypical response to anything french represents your own bigoted narrow-minded worldview that leads to nothing productive. You can hide behind your own radical conservative wall, but no one is going to take you seriously in the process, except, of course, all your own minions that you hold on this website. :down:

 

[Turbo]

Lighten up, Phantastes. I had already responded to your post. What more was there for Knight to say?

Phantastes, do you support imprisonment as punishment for theft?

What (if any) punishment should there be for an inmate who attempts to escape from prison? Is a lengthening of the inmate's term an acceptable option?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Knight: Your dodging of the main argument at hand completely shows the lack of intelligence you have as a whole. Not to mention your cliche and stereotypical response to anything french represents your own bigoted narrow-minded worldview that leads to nothing productive. You can hide behind your own radical conservative wall, but no one is going to take you seriously in the process, except, of course, all your own minions that you hold on this website. :down:

Bitter little fella aren't you???

 

[Stripe]

hey .. look at that ... theo conceded!

 

[Servo]

Why Turbo is winning….

1. theo_victis has made his main argument against the death penalty that we should forgive. The idea being that if you forgive someone, you should not execute them. However his main point has now completely blown up in his face as Turbo has pointed out that Theo doesn’t want total forgiveness – after all, he wants to imprison.

I know it has been asked before, but how is imprisonment the result of forgiveness?
Putting a man in a cage for the rest of his life? Seems kind of cruel and unusual. If I had a debt to pay, I would prefer to get it over with.

BTW, I saw a TV show on gangs in prison the other night. I hope no one out will ever try and make a "rehabilitation" argument. The inmates are clearly running the “asylum”.

 

[Chileice]

Wow! This is good and very insightful.
Genesis 9:1-8

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. (2) The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. (3) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (4) "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (5) And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. (6) "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. (7) As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." (8) Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him:

I studied lots of Hebrew and you are right on. The Hebrew idea of paralellism is found throughout the OT and this is a good exegesis. I'm not quoting all that you wrote but I do hope your detractors will at least afford you the courtesy of reading what you wrote on these verses. Well Done!

 

[novice]

Wow! This is good and very insightful.
Genesis 9:1-8

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. (2) The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. (3) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (4) "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (5) And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. (6) "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. (7) As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." (8) Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him:

I studied lots of Hebrew and you are right on. The Hebrew idea of paralellism is found throughout the OT and this is a good exegesis. I'm not quoting all that you wrote but I do hope your detractors will at least afford you the courtesy of reading what you wrote on these verses. Well Done!

Again, this is yet one more example of how Theo is "all over the board".

The above argument that you highlight might be interesting to consider but we must keep in mind that Theo has stated that he does believe the death penalty was a just penalty up until the cross.

Therefore why is Theo using an Old Testament example of how God didn't institute the Death Penalty, when he has already argued that the Death Penalty BECAME "useless" at the cross???

It would be great if Theo could stay true to his own argument.

 

[Chileice]

TV said:
The main operative words in these verses that appear to argue for deterrence are: Israel shall hear and fear and then put away the evil deed.

However, just as God knew that the Law could only add transgression and must be superseded in Christ, he also knew that this would never work. The book of Judges contains numerous accounts of Gods oppression of his people because they disobeyed and followed other gods then after they repented, God would rise up a judge to remove the oppression. However, God’s very own people were not deterred from God’s punishment and repeated this cycle of following other gods-oppression-repentance-removal of oppression. Where is the deterrent? Why didn’t it work?

Read what the psalmist states:

Psa 36:1 An oracle is within my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God
before his eyes. :thumb:

When we become wicked, when we let sin overcome us, no amount of deterrence will affect us because we have no fear of God to begin with.

What a great piece of work! The fact is that the death penalty was NEVER a good deterent. It was just another example of how mankind is completely unable to keep the law and why God had to send Christ, apart from the law, to redeem the wicked, i.e: Turbo, TV, me and anyone else who will put their faith and trust in Him.

 

[novice]

The fact is that the death penalty was NEVER a good deterent.

Maybe you should "hip" Theo to that fact since he has argued in this debate that the death penalty BECAME "useless" at the cross.

 

[Chileice]

TV,
I don't know who lit a fire under you, but you are finally coming out with guns blazing and a two-edged sword in your hand. I was beginning to wonder if you were really well qualified to lead a debate against the death penalty, but I stand corrected. This is GOOD stuff and Turbo will actually have to shift into some other gear to deal with what you are laying on the table I loved your analysis here:

Turbo states: “Paul warns fellow believers not to commit crimes for fear of being punished by governing authorities.”

Contrary to what Turbo thinks, we are charged to obey the government authorities not out of fear but out of love! No doubt, Turbo argues this only to increase his misguided ideas that punishment deters crime! The influx of love in the end of chapter 13 shows the reason why we obey authorities.

It is extremely hard to discount that at the heart of Paul’s theological vantage was love. Love is so important to Paul that he views it above faith and hope:
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

For Paul, our motivations to do anything should be out of love, not fear!

Perfect love casts out all fear. The cross DOES make a difference. We are no longer slaves but children. We can move beyond the death penalty to a love.

 

[On Fire]

Turbo has explained the connection more than once, but let me have at it one more time.

Theo claims that the DP does not apply because Christ paid the price and we do not need to be punished! If that is true we should not be punished for anything, ever!

Y'all are splittin' hairs. We SHOULD be punished. We DESERVE to be punished. But we WON'T be punished because through Christ we have everlasting life.

 

[Stripe]

Y'all are splittin' hairs. We SHOULD be punished. We DESERVE to be punished. But we WON'T be punished because through Christ we have everlasting life.

but this has nothing to do with the death penalty

 

[Primghar]

i wonder how this debate would have gone had turbos (quote-unquote) "opponent" not claimed to be a christian ...

the debate name might have required adjustment...

Don't you dare, you evil man!!! You do not have the authority to say whether my fiance is a Christian or not.

 

[Chileice]

Maybe you should "hip" Theo to that fact since he has argued in this debate that the death penalty BECAME "useless" at the cross.

Have you read his entire post? Honestly? Or are you just throwing out gems of "wisdom"? It is a very well written, very well thought out post and is anything but "all over the board".

 

[Stripe]

i wonder how this debate would have gone if theos alternate personalities didnt take up most of his processing power...

 

[Chileice]

but this has nothing to do with the death penalty

I think TV is bringing the debate back in focus. Should a Christian support it?

As TV said:
At this point, I will remind you once again, the question of this debate is: “Should Christians support the DP?”

Should a Christian support the DP if that means they are to then judge hypocritically (as defined by Turbo), if they are to not show mercy as commanded by the Lord, and if they are to not forgive as the Lord commands?

I think there is plenty of evidence to say that we should NOT support it any more than we should support abortion or euthanasia.

 

[Stripe]

ok then .. all turbo has to do is live under a regime that practices the death penalty and then he can claim victory in this debate.

 

[Delmar]

Turbo has explained the connection more than once, but let me have at it one more time.

Theo claims that the DP does not apply because Christ paid the price and we do not need to be punished! If that is true we should not be punished for anything, ever!

Y'all are splittin' hairs. We SHOULD be punished. We DESERVE to be punished. But we WON'T be punished because through Christ we have everlasting life.

Thanks for the correction. Let me fix it!

Turbo has explained the connection more than once, but let me have at it one more time.

Theo claims that the DP does not apply because Christ paid the price and the Government no longer needs to put people to death, because we are forgiven! If that is true we should not be punished, by the government, for anything, ever!

 

[novice]

Whether Turbo admits to this or not, his distinct usage of the Socratic Dialectical Method of Argumentation does not help his cause. This styling of argument has been attributed to Socrates (through Plato’s writings). This debate technique attempts to dismantle the opposing view, finding logical flaws. This in itself is a noble cause; however, this manner of arguing in a formal debate has found the disapproval of philosophers and orators alike.

Uh.... who said anything about a "formal debate"? This is a Battle Royale Theo and you have been getting your head bashed in with a folding chair ever since Turbo made his first post. :chuckle:

In simple English: If Turbo proves that my AV is wrong, then Turbo’s advocacy for the DP must be right.

Bingo!

Once again, this debate is not pertaining to whether or not governments have ever had the right to impose justice, rather, the centrality of this debate lies on the individual believer. Should Christians support the Death Penalty? Turbo has only made arguments suggesting that the DP has been given by God to all governments and is the base of all government authority! The main issue has nothing to do with this. The main issue is: Should Christians support the DP? Should a believer in Christ who is no longer condemned for their sins support the condemnation of another? This is the debate.

Wow!

Theo, you don't even get the debate!!! :rotfl: The debate is almost over and you are now just admitting that you have no idea what the debate is about! This is classic!

Theo, if God supports the death penalty THEN Christians should support the death as prescribed by God. The debate isn't "should Christians be put to death?" That isn't the debate! If you think it is then you are wasting your time. The debate IS "Should Christians support the death penalty?" Should we defend it? Should we argue for it as prescribed by God? Should a government execute capital criminals? And if so should us Christians stand behind that notion or reject that notion.

This passage is all in relation to the primary aspect of the chiasm: “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.” In order for Noah to do this, fundamental dietary laws must be established! Think about it, not to many plants containing fruit or nuts would be any good after being drowned in water for forty days!

Your description of Genesis 9 is nothing more than a total disaster. Not only is it silly and unbiblical it also undermines your own argument that the death penalty BECAME "useless" at the cross.

Theo quotes Psalms....

Psa 36:1 An oracle is within my heart
concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:
There is no fear of God
before his eyes.

Odd that Theo stopped at verse 1.

Let's see how this plays out....

Psalms 36:1 An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes, When he finds out his iniquity and when he hates. 3 The words of his mouth are wickedness and deceit; He has ceased to be wise and to do good. 4 He devises wickedness on his bed; He sets himself in a way that is not good; He does not abhor evil. 5 Your mercy, O LORD, is in the heavens; Your faithfulness reaches to the clouds. 6 Your righteousness is like the great mountains; Your judgments are a great deep; O LORD, You preserve man and beast. 7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Your wings. 8 They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house, And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures. 9 For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light. 10 Oh, continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You, And Your righteousness to the upright in heart. 11 Let not the foot of pride come against me, And let not the hand of the wicked drive me away. 12 There the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise.

Hmm.... :think:

It gets better...

Psalms 37:1 Do not fret because of evildoers, Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity. 2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, And wither as the green herb. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.

How shall they be "cut off"?

Psalms 37:14 The wicked have drawn the sword And have bent their bow, To cast down the poor and needy, To slay those who are of upright conduct. 15 Their sword shall enter their own heart, And their bows shall be broken.

Ouch!!! A sword through the heart!

 

[Delmar]

Turbo here states that Genesis 9 is where the DP is to be established. I, however, effectively demonstrated that this passage has nothing to do with the DP

So when was the DP established, I wonder?