Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

[Spartin]

I am agnostic. I don't believe the Bible is factual. I believe in alot of the lessons that the bible teaches. I just don't think that it is correct. I basically live my life according to the bibles rules. I try not to lie, I don't steal kill do the adultery thing. I accept people for who they are. I enjoy the world around me. I am not a bad person. I am not spiteful or rude (I could name a couple of the bible ppl in here as that). I don't even have the urge to even hurt anyone. I volunteer my time to help others. Now according to One eyed, I am still not bound for heaven even though I have lived my life according to the major laws of the bible. I have to believe in the Cristian god in order for eternal salvation. Doesn't that strike you as a little harsh? A murderer confesses just before he gets the chair and starts to believe in the faith of god. He gets in. I would murder nobody and I would be out of luck. I would act with honor honesty all my life and be burning in hell for the rest of eternity for a just and forgiving god. Just because I didn't believe in a book of words. That is petty. According to Jack Jesus is the ONLY way.


Spartin

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I meant to say what I said. If you found it offensive, then oh well...

That is what I tried to explain, even if I don't accuse you, you intentionally did that, it could be taken offensive.

I thought we were talking about the way to Heaven.

Why should I want to discuss that? What makes you think that is a "good topic to debate"? What on earth may think you that I have any urge in discussing heaven? I have heard of nobody that had a good experience in heaven (neither bad experiences as a a matter of fact, which indicates that if heaven exist at all, they do not provide return tickets), so why would I want to go there or even discuss it with anyone?

Do you assume my "earthly life" is alien to me?

If you are unable/unwilling or for what ever reason not even inclined to deal with my "eartly stuff" and emotions and such ( I am sort of attached to my life here.. It's the only life I have!) then why in earth's name would I want to discuss heaven with you?

(please take no offense in what I say, or take it personal).

I don't know about you, but let us suppose you have a kid, and all of a sudden a man approaches your kid, and says he wants to take your kid to heaven.

How would you react to that? (stating as it is, and meaning heaven: you are never gonna see your child again!)

Why should it?

What do you think?

Part of me being me, is that I believe in what and who I am, and how I think about the world. No matter what I can make myself understand or not understand, up to a certain extend and at some bottom layer of my conscioiusness, I have to have formed some or other form of "belief" (something that can not be further based onto something I know). Most of my knowledge, I will for sure try to base on evidence (wether personal or secondary knowledge, in the form of books)

Do you think it is important for me (as to anyone else) that that what makes us us, is based on beliefs, and as such, that is of importance of significance?

Not that I would disagree that whatever one beliefs in, needs to be critically examined, and sometimes urges one to critically reexamine as to what one consciously believes in.

The truth often is offensive.

In the way you are stating it, it certainly is or can be.

But perhaps this is something that has to do with manners, skils and tactics?

The same truth can be told in many forms, some less and some more offensive. It matters as to what that truth is, what it is connected with, and what one's own attitude is.

As for anyone, some truths are easier to accept then others.
It comes to what one already believes in or not.

 

[Flake]

Re: Atheism

Re: Atheism

Originally posted by SOTKForEver
Regarding God of the Gaps- I could reverse this argument right back at the Atheist. You, the Atheist, can not prove that these "Gaps" weren't a direct result of God's plan. If we, Christians, "cleverly" provide "God did it" as an answer to these "Gaps" in scientific knowledge, than Atheists cleverly provide "science doesn't know yet" as way to steer away from trying to prove that "God didn't do it". "Science doesn't know yet isn't a good enough answer.

It cannot be proven that the gaps where part of gods plan either. The fact that these gaps are diminishing is evidence of a trend of discovery indicating prior belief of a diety being responsible to be erroneous.

Originally posted by SOTKForEver
I have observed, although I haven't read every single post under Battle Talk, that Atheists seem to post the longest most elaborate posts filled with excerpts from various texts, scientific journals, etc. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or the believer? I haven't seen much of this from the believer due mostly because of faith. This is especially true for me. The proof that I have that God exists is in my heart. It's the way that I feel and the way my life is. I do understand the need to convince oneself that God does not exist as I was there myself at one point.

The athiest knows in his heart that god does not exist. However, the atheist also has growing evidence of this fact, the theists evidence of existance is receeding as the gaps are filled with knowledge rather than blind faith.

Originally posted by SOTKForEver
As a Christian, I have nothing to lose whereas an Atheist or Agnostic has everything to lose. If God does not exist, than when I am dead it won't matter. Having believed my whole life in Christ would not have hurt me anything. In fact, doing my best to abide by God's will to live my life brings me happiness anyways (eg, Loving ones neighbor as thyself, honor thy mother and father, etc). Those are good things. If God does exist like I believe him too, than I have everything to gain. What will you, the non-believer, gain if you are wrong and God does in deed exist. You risk everything. Now, obviously there is more to being a believer than fear but it's a good start.

This is incorrect, an athiest has nothing to lose. Do you believe out of fear of hell?
It is not necessary to "abide by God's will" to "Love ones neighbor as thyself, honor thy mother and father". Many athiests already have a moral code that would sit quite nicely as a christian ethic, we really are not that different. Athiest just posit that belief and worship of the unseen is unnesessary to be "good". It can be argued that rigorous adherance to dogma causes more "bad" than "good" by example of the Crusades, the Cathar holocaust, persecution of witches etc etc, history is full of this, we should learn from it.
If you know it in your heart and wish to do good for others, why have the need to justify it, that it must come from an extrnal source and not from your own inherant goodness? Love can stand on its own, we should have more faith in ourselves.

 

[Yorzhik]

Just caught up again. Whew. I need a drink.

 

[RogerB]

The fact that these gaps are diminishing

Yes, the gaps are diminishing as man runs out of "logical" explanations.

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Spartin
I have to believe in the Cristian god in order for eternal salvation. Doesn't that strike you as a little harsh?

No, what would strike me as a little harsh is forcing you to live eternally with a God you obviously despise.

 

[RogerB]

Why should I want to discuss that? What makes you think that is a "good topic to debate"? What on earth may think you that I have any urge in discussing heaven? I have heard of nobody that had a good experience in heaven (neither bad experiences as a a matter of fact, which indicates that if heaven exist at all, they do not provide return tickets), so why would I want to go there or even discuss it with anyone?

Because it's nicer than Hell?

Do you assume my "earthly life" is alien to me? {/QUOTE]

No, you have proven time and again that you have a firm grip on your earthly life.

If you are unable/unwilling or for what ever reason not even inclined to deal with my "eartly stuff" and emotions and such ( I am sort of attached to my life here.. It's the only life I have!) then why in earth's name would I want to discuss heaven with you?

I'd love to deal with your earthly "stuff".

I don't know about you, but let us suppose you have a kid, and all of a sudden a man approaches your kid, and says he wants to take your kid to heaven.

How would you react to that? (stating as it is, and meaning heaven: you are never gonna see your child again!)

The only one who could propose such a plan would be God. And if God wants my child at His side then so be it. Doesn't mean I won't be sad or disappointed. However, heaven is certainly a much better place than this earth. And, I WILL get to see my child again. These are not hypotheses or theories. They are facts.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by RogerB And if God wants my child at His side then so be it. Doesn't mean I won't be sad or disappointed. However, heaven is certainly a much better place than this earth. And, I WILL get to see my child again. These are not hypotheses or theories. They are facts.

No, they aren't. They are your beliefs. Just because you believe something doesn't make them facts.

If I tell you that your "God" is nothing but a man made superstition, (because that's what I believe your god to be) would you suddenly drop your religion because I said so? Or would you call me a liar for representing my beliefs as though they were fact?

What possible gain is there in pretending that our beliefs are fact to people who already don't believe us? What possible reaction could we get from them for having done so? Aren't they, just as you would do with them, simply going to dismiss you as a liar? And in fact, wouldn't you BE lying to make such a claim?

Blind boasts such as these only serve to discredit the one boasting, and further convince the rest of us that he is indeed blind.

 

[Zakath]

Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Originally posted by JanowJ
He did offer you a clear, unambiguous way out: Romans 5:8... John 14:6... Does it get any clearer than that?

It's only clear for those of you who accept those particular texts as valid spiritual authorities. For the rest of the world, your Jesus is just another alleged god...

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by RogerB
...The only one who could propose such a plan would be God...

Actually I was thinking of a suicide bomber... I don't think they have much to do with any deity...

 

[RogerB]

Originally posted by PureX
...too stupid to be repeated...

:kookoo:

 

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Zakath
Actually I was thinking of a suicide bomber... I don't think they have much to do with any deity...

You think suicide bombers can take children to heaven? Woah. :kookoo:

 

[tenkeeper]

I see civilization shatter and fall apart
And the carts keep rolling
And the crooked politicians are cajoling
For more blood money
Yet
I see a land of milk and honey
In my periphery
And
Misery does not exist

 

[SOTK]

Re: Re: Atheism

Re: Re: Atheism

Originally posted by Flake
It cannot be proven that the gaps where part of gods plan either.

That was my whole point. If the Atheist makes the statement that God is not responsible for the gaps but can't prove it, the bringing up of this statement serves no purpose.

Originally posted by Flake The fact that these gaps are diminishing is evidence of a trend of discovery indicating prior belief of a diety being responsible to be erroneous.

What evidence? Cite the facts where the evidence is diminishing. This is the same area where Zakath failed miserably.

Originally posted by Flake The athiest knows in his heart that god does not exist. However, the atheist also has growing evidence of this fact, the theists evidence of existance is receeding as the gaps are filled with knowledge rather than blind faith.

Again, show me the growing evidence of this fact. It seems to me that the Atheist has blind faith that God does not exist as opposed to knowledge of this fact as you assert. You might not like nor agee with the explanations given in the Bible regarding the creation of the universe and man, but I can at least point to mine and say "This is my proof, God does fill in the Gaps for me". Again, show me your proof where the Gaps have been filled with human knowledge.

Originally posted by Flake This is incorrect, an athiest has nothing to lose. Do you believe out of fear of hell?

No, I don't fear Hell, because I already know where I am going. I do have a healthy fear of God. "The beginning of wisdom is to have fear of God". I am always accountable to Him and this will especially be the case when I am judged. I don't see at all where I am incorrect in saying that the Christian has nothing to lose but the Atheist everything. The Atheist being a "good person" and having a moral code similiar to the Christian will have no bearing whatsover in having a place in God's home. Jesus was very specific when he stated, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

Originally posted by Flake It is not necessary to "abide by God's will" to "Love ones neighbor as thyself, honor thy mother and father". Many athiests already have a moral code that would sit quite nicely as a christian ethic, we really are not that different. Athiest just posit that belief and worship of the unseen is unnesessary to be "good".

I think you are right when you say that you do not have to abide by God's will in order to love thy neighbor as thy self. There are many that I personally know who are very good people. Most of them are agnostics and believe they will have an "afterlife" because they do "good". This is very wrong and unfortunate. Where does the Atheist moral code come from? Why should you be good? What happens if you are not good? From whom or where do you find accountability for doing bad?

Originally posted by Flake It can be argued that rigorous adherance to dogma causes more "bad" than "good" by example of the Crusades, the Cathar holocaust, persecution of witches etc etc, history is full of this, we should learn from it.

It can also be argued that the removing of God from society can lead to more harm than good. Look at the rise in work place violence and the terrible acts of violence which have occured in our public education schools. When Christian ethic was more present in society in general, there weren't nearly as many incidents of violence as there is now.

Originally posted by Flake If you know it in your heart and wish to do good for others, why have the need to justify it, that it must come from an extrnal source and not from your own inherant goodness? Love can stand on its own, we should have more faith in ourselves.

I don't have inherent goodness. I can choose to be good or choose to be bad. Believe me, I am more bad than good as compared to Christs example. I can never live up to the example which Christ set. It's impossible, which makes the gift He gave so awesome. I owe it to God to be good. Look how good he was to me. Man has been screwing up since the beginning. There is no inherent goodness.

If I had so much faith in myself, how come I couldn't stop drinking alcoholicly on my own? It took an act of God to remove the physical craving of alcohol as well as the obession of the mind to drink alcohol from me. I tried for a couple of years to quit on my own. Love did not help either. Talk with any recovering alcoholic and see if their inherent goodness or faith in themselves allowed them to stop drinking.

 

[ZroKewl]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Maybe you just need to learn English better.

Heusden: you should just ignore him. Jack likes to play by himself. You came into his sandbox, he stuck his tongue out at you. It is probably best to talk to someone else now.

--ZK

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by heusdens
Why should I want to discuss that?

I dunno, but that's what you were talking about when I jumped in.

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Spartin
According to Jack Jesus is the ONLY way.

Actually, that's according to Jesus. I'm just agreeing with Him.

 

[ZroKewl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Re: Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Not to one that doesn't have ears to hear with, or eyes to see with.

It would probably be easier to hear if it weren't for that resounding gong and clanging cymbal.

--ZK

 

[One Eyed Jack]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A god of Zakath's own making.

Originally posted by ZroKewl
It would probably be easier to hear if it weren't for that resounding gong and clanging cymbal.

--ZK

That reference obviously flew right over your head.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
I dunno, but that's what you were talking about when I jumped in.

I just looked it up. I made a remark about Jesus being the only way. I placed a remark that I knew of other ways, which are (apart from my own way) that of Martin Luther King, Che Guevara, and one could mention many others.

In fact in a world with 6.3 billion people, there are 6.3 billion ways. There are 6.3 billions ways people conduct their lives.
One might distinguish similiarities, but even so, there are 6.3 billion unique ways of living a human life. 6.3 billion ways.

Now, you stated that the way to the Father and to heaven is only through Jesus, and that my life has no purpose.

Like I stated, I take some offense in that. It's not for you to determine if my life has a purpose, neither it is for me to define for you if your life has a purpose.

If you think you are the right thing doing, then that what is right to you. And if it is not, it is for you to change your life.

About the heaven thing, I think I made clear that eternal existence, is pretty long, sinc it is endless. Since they don't sell return tickets to heaven, and never witnessed someone going back, I assume once you're in, you are always in.

I can not think otherwise then to have to life for eternity in a conscious state, is hell. What else could an eternity be like?

PS.Happily though they have a good policy up there. As long as you show any signs of consciousness, they won't let you in, and sent you back immediately.