Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VII

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Psycho Dave

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Re: consciousness defined

Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by LightSon
Not to wax pedantic, but unless you are proposing to redefine Consciousness according to your own liking, I think you are mistaken. Consciousness is clearly a noun.

From the Random House dictionary:

con·scious·ness (konÆshÃs nis), n.
1. the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
"being conscious" is an action.
"being aware" isa action.
2. the thoughts
Thoughts are active firings of neurons in the brain. A thought is an action.
and feelings,
Feeling is a verb. A feeling is a brain state, indeed, a whole body state in most cases.
collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people: the moral consciousness of a nation.
3. full activity of the mind and senses,
"Activity" is an action!
as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.
"regaining consciousness after falling" describes an action.
4. awareness
"awareness" is an action.
of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.
5. concern, interest, or acute awareness: class consciousness.
6. the mental activity
"mental activity" is an action.
of which a person is aware as contrasted with unconscious mental processes.
A process is an action
7. Philos. the mind or the mental faculties as characterized by thought, feelings, and volition.
8. raise one's consciousness, to increase one's awareness and understanding of one's own needs, behavior, attitudes, etc., esp. as a member of a particular social or political group.
[1625–35; CONSCIOUS + -NESS]
None of these definitions support your verb theory.
No, in fact, most of them do. I don't know if you're keen on the fact that VERB = ACTION.

Apart from dictionary definitions which actually support what I've said, but which you seemed to have misinterpreted, There is a missing SCIENTIFIC defintion. Scientific terminology is constantly in flux, especially as highly theoretical areas become more validated through discovery and rsearch. Most dictionaries do not have current, up-to-date medical and scientific terminology. You need a medical/scientific dictionary to suppliment it. I have several. You need a new one every year or so.
But to continue with your theory, it is regrettable that you try to reduce human consciousness to mere electrical feedback loops etc. I think you have confused Star Trek with reality. Mr. Data, for all his fictitious glory, is fantasy.
I know that. In fact, I think Star Trek is the worst science fiction show on television. I guess you didn't see that I was usng Mr. Data as an example of somethig THAT DOESN'T EXIST!
Man is one of God’s highest creations. In this respect, our bodies are wonderfully made. You err and cheapen us by postulating that we are only physical.
I do not believe that our physical nature cheapens how awe-inspiring our minds and biology are. I appreciate the human being and mind for what it is - a fabulously complex living machine.
We are also spiritual and the workings of our spirit will doubtful be put under a microscope.
What do you think a microscope would help prove about the spiritual world of which you speak.
Fine. Understanding DNA is a remarkable scientific byproduct and I have no problem accepting MICROEVOLUTION. It is observable.
The evidence of macroevolution is everywhere. The BILLIONS of fossils we have, combined with our knowledge of how DNA works, makes macroevolution an inevitable reality. I honestly don't know what the problem is. How does the world being billions of years old invalidate the Bible? It doesn't. It only invalidates one extremist position. Hugh Ross is a highly respected creationist author and scientist. He also believes that the world is older than 10,000 years.

WWW.answersingenesis.org.
It follows that you must believe that time is the only difference. Sorry. You just made a leap of faith. With the exception of your godless thinking, there is no scientific reason to accept your macro-evolution-dogma. This missing link is still missing! Why do you suppose that is? macro-evolution is NOT observable, yet your bias is forces you to see what is not there.
Which missing link are you referring to? The concept of the missing link is no longer valid.
Evidence? If you can provide eyewitness testimony from older than 10,000 years, let's talk. Evolution is theory. It is religious dogma dressed up in scientific garb.

Well at least you admit it is your opinion. I don't think you know what a hypocrite is. I am a creationist and there is no way you could level that charge against me without knowing my motives, and that I am in fact pretending in my assertions.
I wish that people would stop having strong opinions abou stuff that they obviously never realyl studied.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Re: Re: consciousness defined

Re: Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by Psycho Dave I wish that people would stop having strong opinions about stuff that they obviously never really studied.
LOL! I got a kick out of that statement. If I had to actually KNOW something before having an opinion about it, I wouldn't have any opinions at all! hehe As it is, heck, I have opinions about things I ain't never even HEARD OF yet!
 

tenkeeper

New member
Job 28:12-28

But where shall wisdom be found and where is the place of understanding?
Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living.
The depth saith, it is not in me: and the sea saith, it is not with me.
It cannot be gotten for gold, neither shall silver be weighed for the price thereof.
It cannot be valued with the gold of Ophir, with the precious onyx or the sapphire.
The gold and the crystal cannot equal it: and the exchange of it shall not be for jewels of fine gold.
No mention shall be made of coral or of pearls: for the price of wisdom is above rubies.
The topaz of Ethiopia shall not equal it, neither shall it be valued with pure gold
Whence then cometh 'wisdom'? and where is the place of understanding?
Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living and kept close from the fowls of the air.
Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.
God understandeth the way thereof and He knoweth the place thereof.
For He looketh to the ends of the earth and seeth under the whole heaven;
To make the weight for the winds and He weigheth the waters by measure.
When He made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder:
Then did He see it and declare it; He prepared it, yea, and searched it out.
And unto man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that IS WISDOM
and to Depart from evil, is UNDERSTANDING.
 

heusdens

New member
Re: consciousness defined

Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by LightSon
Not to wax pedantic, but unless you are proposing to redefine Consciousness according to your own liking, I think you are mistaken. Consciousness is clearly a noun.

From the Random House dictionary:


None of these definitions support your verb theory.

But to continue with your theory, it is regrettable that you try to reduce human consciousness to mere electrical feedback loops etc. I think you have confused Star Trek with reality. Mr. Data, for all his fictitious glory, is fantasy. Man is one of God’s highest creations. In this respect, our bodies are wonderfully made. You err and cheapen us by postulating that we are only physical. We are also spiritual and the workings of our spirit will doubtful be put under a microscope.

Can you back up your idea that this is not the case. What part of mankind is not physical, is not residing on some or other property of matter then? All investigations into consciousness indicate that it does reside on physical properties of matter.

If you claim otherwise, then please proof that to us.

It follows that you must believe that time is the only difference. Sorry. You just made a leap of faith. With the exception of your godless thinking, there is no scientific reason to accept your macro-evolution-dogma. This missing link is still missing! Why do you suppose that is? macro-evolution is NOT observable, yet your bias is forces you to see what is not there.

You state: macro-evolution is not observeable. You mean to say: not observable on a human time scale, cause the time scale of macro-evolution far exceeeds the time scales of human life.

So?

You then say that there is only rigorous scientific evidence for something, if we can observe it in an labaratory, and doing multiple experiments on it. If scientists can not giv evidence then under labaratory circumstances that all of macro-evolution took place on a human time scale, we can as well neglect any of that.
That also means that all knowledge of astronomy and geology can be trashed then, cause there were no "eye-witnesses".

Evidence? If you can provide eyewitness testimony from older than 10,000 years, let's talk. Evolution is theory. It is religious dogma dressed up in scientific garb.

Evolution is theory. So is gravity.
A theory means that it is backed up by huge amounts of evidence, and as accepted as a fact.
A hypothese on the other hand, is not yet a proven fact.
Evolution is not a hypothese but a theory, and is as factual as gravity.

Well at least you admit it is your opinion. I don't think you know what a hypocrite is. I am a creationist and there is no way you could level that charge against me without knowing my motives, and that I am in fact pretending in my assertions.

Then Mr Creationist explain to us how the earth could have evolved the way it did in only 10.000 years, please provide evidence for all of the gelogical observations that exists, and explain to us how this could have happened in only 10.000 years.
You need to explain for instance: contintental drifts, all sediments which have formed, all mountain ranges and oceans.
Or did God just put the evidence in there for a planet that existed for more then 4 billion years?

Here is a webpage presenting the evidence for macro-evolution and common descend 29+ evidences for macro-evolution
 
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heusdens

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ATTENTION SIR KNIGHT!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ATTENTION SIR KNIGHT!!!

Originally posted by Neophyte
As in "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."??? Matthew 7:5

Or are you saying Christians should not even discuss morality with others because no one is perfect (ie, they don't always practice what they preach)?

Sorry, just a little confused about your last statement. It sounds like you are implying that Bob Enyart is judging others simply because he's asserting a moral argument. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

The point is that Bob Enyart takes a position in which he links the form of amorality of the holocaust, and shift that onto the conto of atheism. I showed that this is totally nonsense, since atheism or evolution science has no relation towards the nazi ideology. On the contrary, important elements of nazism can be showed to have derived from catholicism (hatred for jews and anti-semitism in general for example), and that their racial ideology is in direct conflict with evolution theory.
Human kind has no races, we are one species, and only have some variations due to different circumstances. further acc. to evolution theory, all species are best adapted to their natural environments, therefore there is no "better" species.
Since the nazi ideology is in direct conflict with the evolution theory, is must be then that nazi ideology has other sources.
Theists doctrines preached for centuries in Europe, formed an important factor to the "success" of the nazi ideology, this in combination with the economic circumstances of Germany after WW I.

Further I showed that morals preached by theist have a huge gap with morals practised by theists.

As far as this is concerned, what we can learn from this is that we could better get rid of such doctrines, stating their historic record.
What is the use of preaching morals which one does not practice themself?

Mankind has no use in such "preachers" but should follow examples of people who practiced high morals, and often did that under most severe and extreme circumstances.
 
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Hank

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Re: consciousness defined

Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by LightSon
It follows that you must believe that time is the only difference. Sorry. You just made a leap of faith. With the exception of your godless thinking, there is no scientific reason to accept your macro-evolution-dogma. This missing link is still missing! Why do you suppose that is? macro-evolution is NOT observable, yet your bias is forces you to see what is not there.

Is observing something the only evidence you accept?
 

ZroKewl

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Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
There is nothing unscientific about believing in something you cannot see directly or prove. The unscientific position would be to not believe in something just because you cannot see it.
The goal of science is not to say what you should or shouldn't believe. The goal of science is to come up with models that can make accurate predictions of the universe. In this way, we are said to have a better understanding of how the universe works.

Regardless... that was pretty freakin funny. :chuckle:

--ZK
 

LightSon

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Re: Re: consciousness defined

Re: Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by Hank
Is observing something the only evidence you accept?

No. Only in the realm of science would I insist upon some documentable observation, especially to trigger a geometric shift in my views. I'm simply trying to differentiate between science and faith. Science can't prove what happened 10,000 years ago or 4 billion years ago. To the extent that true science can tell me things, I'll accept them. Beyond the purview of science there are many things I accept, but such acceptance has to come through a means other than science. Macro-evolution falls under religion because it is faith based. The evolutionist seems to be arguing, "I can observe micro-evolution, and here we exist therefore macro-evolution must account for what I cannot observe". It is still a conclusion based upon their presumption of not-God.

True Science is a great tool, but is not well suited to answering all of life's questions.
 

avatar382

New member
Hello all,

I am new here, but have been reading the debate with great interest. I am currently a weak athiest, but I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home as a child. The discussions brought up here have been quite interesting.

I've read through the first 45 pages of this thread, and would like to contribute to the debate, but first I would like to ask a question...

From my experiences as a Christian, most agree that the Christian god has the following qualities -

1.) he is omnipotent

2.) he is omniscient

3.) his love for humanity is infinite

4.) he has a free will - that is, not predetermined by anything and not bound to a destiny of some sort. A god with a free will can act as he chooses, as people act as they chose.

5.) he is personal god - that is, a god who relates to people on a personal level instead of just watching from above

To the Christians here - is this an accurate portrayal of your diety? Tell me if there is anything I am missing. I apologize if this has been covered in the 45 pages of this thread I haven't read.
 
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Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by avatar382
Hello all,

I am new here, but have been reading the debate with great interest. I am currently a weak athiest, but I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home as a child. The discussions brought up here have been quite interesting.

I've read through the first 45 pages of this thread...
45 pages!!! Egad man, you're a TOL Animal! :shocked:

Someone get this man a footstool and a cold compress for his eyes. :thumb:

BTW. Welcome! :D
 

Stratnerd

New member
The evolutionist seems to be arguing, "I can observe micro-evolution, and here we exist therefore macro-evolution must account for what I cannot observe". It is still a conclusion based upon their presumption of not-God.

Where do you get this stuff - "true Science" "presumption of not-God"? Darwin and many others simply asked - what explains what we see more effectively: Biblical literalism or evolution? God doesn't have much to do with it and there are many here that insists that God exists and evolution too. Macroevolution, for whatever that means, is not simply an extrapolation of microevolution but also a conclusion reached by the observation of the fossil record.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Observing the fossil record leads many people to conclude that there was once a global flood. It all depends on how you look at the evidence.
 

Stratnerd

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Details... it's all in the details and I've never seen a detailed explanation of how the fossil record fits a global flood. Somebody please outline one... and do it over in origins since there will be several nonrelated pages of responses on this thread. Please!
 

Hank

New member
Re: Re: Re: consciousness defined

Re: Re: Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by LightSon
No. Only in the realm of science would I insist upon some documentable observation, especially to trigger a geometric shift in my views. I'm simply trying to differentiate between science and faith. Science can't prove what happened 10,000 years ago or 4 billion years ago. To the extent that true science can tell me things, I'll accept them. Beyond the purview of science there are many things I accept, but such acceptance has to come through a means other than science. Macro-evolution falls under religion because it is faith based. The evolutionist seems to be arguing, "I can observe micro-evolution, and here we exist therefore macro-evolution must account for what I cannot observe". It is still a conclusion based upon their presumption of not-God.

True Science is a great tool, but is not well suited to answering all of life's questions.

Fair enough, then I'll ask the same question I asked before, why do you believe the earth rotates around the sun?
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: consciousness defined

Re: Re: Re: Re: consciousness defined

Originally posted by Hank
Fair enough, then I'll ask the same question I asked before, why do you believe the earth rotates around the sun?

The Earth doesn't rotate around the sun -- it rotates around its axis. It revolves around the sun. How many times have I got to tell you this?
 

Bob Enyart

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Staff member
Administrator
382

382

Avatar382, hi. Perhaps another Christian at TOL will answer your question. I thought I would tell you why I used the definition I did in round one of the debate, which is a subset of the attributes that Christians typically use to define God. When you are identifying a particular person, you can just give his name, and that might suffice, or if the name is common, perhaps you add his parent's names also, and if they are common, his birthdate, and if more than one John Smith was born to John and Mary Smith on 7-2-93, you can add the city of his birth, and if two John Smith's were born in that city, you might add the hospital to further identify which you are talking about, or whether the kid is homeschooled or lives near the lake, and so on, until you've given enough information to define who you are talking about. This is true of people, trees, ideas, etc., in that you can give a brief or a detailed definition of something, depending upon the need. So, a definition of a person, or God if one exists, could conceivably be a word or two, a sentence, a paragraph, a page-long resume, a biography, or a world-full of libraries. If someone denies the existence of the person you are talking about (let's say they deny that your mother existed), and you are defending her existence, then you might want to keep the debate to a few basics. For example, if someone wrote a 1,000-page book about your mom, and filled it with 10,000 details, then the debate may be so broad that as soon as one side was making a point (say on page 367), the other side jumped to page 368 and a new topic. Thus, since we only have 10 rounds, I though it would help to better explore the opposing positions if we stick to basic attributes of God, but enough of them to distinguish a personal righteous God from an impersonal powersource for example. Looking forward to reading your posts, -Bob Enyart
 

Stratnerd

New member
Bob E. et al.,

We know God's nature from the Bible, correct? And part of this nature deals with creative powers and this is elucidated in Genesis. I was wondering if Genesis is shown to be false (that the Earth was > 6000 years and life have evolved) then would the nature of God change, at least from a Christain perspective? Is this why Genesis is defended so rigorously among some Christians and noone else?
 

Psycho Dave

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One Eyed Jack wrote:
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
Observing the fossil record leads many people to conclude that there was once a global flood. It all depends on how you look at the evidence.

I know. Those people tend to ignore the rest of the evidence that suggests evolution, though.

Evidence like:
(1) The order fossils are found .
(2) The fact that beneath geologic features whose age we know, are millions of other geologic features that come before them.
(3) The fact that not a single higher-level fossil is found predating fossil types that had to come before them (No mammals before fish, no reptiles before amphibians)
(4) radioactive dating
(5) DNA, which, when examined and compared, validates assumptions of relatedness of various species.
(6) Hominid fossils, which clearly show human features in fossils prior to fully human fossils.
 
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