BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54

[bill betzler]

Yes, the KJV is an honest translation.

Thank you.

 

[bill betzler]

Matt: 27 - 37
And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Just an after thought. Here we have the truth written by men in mockery. Yet, in this mockery, God honors His Son with one of His correct Titles.

You just have to love God. He is the very best.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

I must be a base person since I found it funny with a ring of truth.

Pun intended??

 

[Explosived]

Originally posted by Huldrych


Even though it is based on the "corrupt" TR?

News Flash
I think only those of you who have any interest in German will find this interesting:

How this slipped by eight years of study, two degrees, and sixteen years experience with the language, I don't know (well, I do, secular education does not hold sacred literature in very high esteem), but I just discovered that, in the time between Ulfilas and Luther, the Waldenses had their own translations of the Bible in German.

About fourteen editions, or so I read.

What's more, Luther seems to have drawn very heavily from it. If you compare a Waldensian Bible with a Luther, they match up almost exactly.

I know, this may be boring or irrelevant to everyone else, but it is a very exciting find for me! :thumb:

Blessings,
jth

Yes Luther did. I can find you some more info if you like on the Waldensians.

 

[rapt]

Can Luther's theology be "honest" when Luther despised the book of James, Revelation, Esther, and many others, calling James "an epistle of straw", and making other blasphemous remarks about other books of the bible?

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Sure it can be honest. It may not be "correct" but it can definately be honest.

 

[rapt]

Luther: honest or deranged?

Luther: honest or deranged?

How, I ask, can anyone who had access to the Holy Scriptures like Luther did, say such things as he did, and still be considered "honest"?

Martin Luther:

"Be a sinner and sin vigorously; but even more vigorously believe and delight in Christ who is victor over sin, death and the world.... It is sufficient that we recognize through the wealth of God's glory the lamb who bears the sins of the world; from this sin does not sever us, even if thousands, thousands of times in one day we should fornicate or murder"

(letter to Philip Melanchthon, August 1, 1521).
This Martin Luther quote is cited in "Religions in Four Dimensions", p. 156, by Walter Kaufmann

Here are some quotes compiled by Don Martin. Here is his statment concerning them:

Note: I am often asked for source citations for these quotes. Most of them come from "Luther's Table Talk" or from one of the several
Luther biographies
Unfortunately, when I collected these quotes, I did so only for my own amusement and I didn't keep track of the exact citations. - Don Morgan

Here are the Luther quotes Morgan compiled:

"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

"Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders."

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]....

"The fact that [the biblical book] Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two...."

"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all."


"A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him."

"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without inequality of persons. Some must be free, some serfs, some rulers, some subjects."

"As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil."

"As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts."

"At Poltersberg, there is a lake similarly cursed. If you throw a stone into it, a dreadful storm immediately arises, and the whole neighboring district quakes to its centre. 'Tis the devils kept prisoner there."

"At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him."

"Demons live in many lands, but particularly in Prussia."

"How often have not the demons called 'Nix,' drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences."

"I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kulenberg did."

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

"I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child of this sort, which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children."


"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

"In many countries there are particular places to which devils more especially resort. In Prussia there is an infinite number of evil spirits."

"In Switzerland, on a high mountain, not far from Lucerne, there is a lake they call Pilate's Pond, which the Devil has fixed upon as one of the chief residences of his evil spirits...."

"Many demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark poolly places ready to hurt...people."

"No gown worse becomes a than the desire to be wise."

"Our bodies are always exposed to Satan . The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil's spells."

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

"Some [demons] are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds."

"The best way to get rid of the Devil, if you cannot kill it with the words of Holy Scripture , is to rail at and mock him. Music, too, is very good; music is hateful to him, and drives him far away. "

"The damned whore Reason...."

"The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while 'tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. 'Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet 'tis only the Devil; and...the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil...."

"The Devil...clutched hold of the miserable young man...and flew off with him through the ceiling, since which time nothing has been heard of [him]."

"The Devil fears the word of God, He can't bite it; it breaks his teeth."

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

"The winds are nothing else but good or bad spirits. Hark! how the Devil is puffing and blowing...."

"There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost, and he himself a prophet."

"This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy ; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."

"To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason."

"...two devils rose from the water, and flew off through the air, crying, 'Oh, oh, oh!' and turning one over another, in sportive mockery...."


"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

"We need not invite the Devil to our table; he is too ready to come without being asked. The air all about us is filled with demons...."


"When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children."

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason."

Luther hated God's Word. He hated the Jews, and wanted them all dead, along with all witches burnt. To me Luther was no more a man of God than Benny Hinn or A. A. Allen

 

[bill betzler]

Pun intended??

No, but on reflection I see it there.

 

[rapt]

The WORDS that Christ spake are spirit and LIFE

The WORDS that Christ spake are spirit and LIFE

Jaltus: Really? Last time I checked, Jesus was the truth, not doctrine.

Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Luke 13
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are;


1 Timothy 6
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[bill betzler]

Rapt,

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]....

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

Luther doesn't sound too good. He surely contradicted himself with reasoning and faith. He used reasoning to say that there ws no reconciliation between James and Paul on the justification by faith. Why didn't he use faith to believe both books?

I don't know if he had a sex life or not, but I sure wouildn't want it. never really knowing??????????????

You did a good job showing him to be lunatic.

But all of this does bring up a good point. The chicken and the egg circle. Which comes first. The same dilemma that Jaltus and others are intrinsically working with with their modern scholarship.

For me and others we take a Bible (KJ) and accept it by faith that it is the true word of God. When we come to parts that are seemingly contradictory, we acknowledge our ignorance, but by faith, we still say the scripture is true.

Whereas for people like Luther and Jaltus and others, they feel that the Bible isn't a finished product yet to be accepted in totality by faith. Sure, maybe 99% but not 100%.

So the dilemma for Luther and others is that they are always struggling with their reasoning as to what they can accept with faith. There is no place of rest there as we see in Luther's writings. But for us "all faith people," (not worrying on how God got the Bible to us), we rest easily in faith that the Scriptures are true.

 

[bill betzler]

Sure it can be honest. It may not be "correct" but it can definately be honest.

Pilgrimagin, Rapt is saying that the theology isn't honest not that Luther isn't honest.

If the theology is wrong, it isn't honest.

hon•est \"a-n€st\ adj 1 : free from deception : truthful; also : genuine, real 2 : reputable 3 : creditable 4 : marked by integrity 5 : frank syn upright, just, conscientious, honorable — hon•est•ly adv — hon•es•ty \-n€-stE\ n

(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

 

[rapt]

Amen, Bill. Let God be true and every man a liar. Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. We are complete in HIM, and He is the WORD OF GOD.

Both Luther and Calvin made their governments their arm. Their hearts departed from the Lord and they both persecuted other believers.

 

[rapt]

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. Ye shall know them by their fruits.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Re: The WORDS that Christ spake are spirit and LIFE

Re: The WORDS that Christ spake are spirit and LIFE

Originally posted by rapt



Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Luke 13
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are;


1 Timothy 6
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I'm not sure what the point is?

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Originally posted by rapt
Amen, Bill. Let God be true and every man a liar. Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. We are complete in HIM, and He is the WORD OF GOD.

Both Luther and Calvin made their governments their arm. Their hearts departed from the Lord and they both persecuted other believers.

I think you are quite right there. Therefore, I must stop listening to anything you say. You are after all merely a man interpreting scripture and not scripture it self. And sinse apparently by your logic, you being a man you are a liar, I can no longer trust your words.

 

[Jaltus]

Whereas for people like Luther and Jaltus and others, they feel that the Bible isn't a finished product yet to be accepted in totality by faith.

I think it is a finished product, finished long ago. I just think we, the church, have mangled it. I am not looking to "complete" it, but to find what we once had.

Big difference.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Well put JAltus. You're not trying to add anything to it, just figure out what it said in the first place.

 

[rapt]

Pilgrimagain:

I'm not sure what the point is?

You neglected to repost the entire post. I quoted Jaltus of saying that Jesus is the truth, not doctrine, then responded with appropriate scripture. Jesus IS the Word of God, and the Word IS doctrine. True doctrine, not false. He apparantly didn't already know that. How he could attempt to seperate Christ from His word is unthinkable.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

I know what you said, it's just that the verses are quoted out of context and do not seem germain to the issue. Plus do your eally think that Jesus is not the final authority?

 

[Hitch]

I wonder if the ants in Yosemite compare themselves to the Sequoias...