Atheists, do you hope you're right?

[Hawkins]

On the contrary if a day of battle is claimed to have occurred we can go look for its remnants on the field, corroborate with independent sources, infer from indirect impact on other events etc. Even then we generally have valuing degrees of confidence that either the event happened or it happened as described. Also these events all obey known science, no claims of Caesar raining the thunderbolts of Zeus on his enemies for example.

That limits to a very specific kind of history. More parts of history is about what some historical figures did and said which can hardly be evidenced.

Christianity on the other hand does not even achieve much if any of this level of evidence yet then expects is to believe that events defied physics and we should base our lives around its lessons (no matter how stupid some sound). Do you see why your comparison with "normal" history is flawed?

Apples and oranges, not every scenarios share what is common to known wars. Most of them can only be conveyed by witnessing. Answer me, how can a sentence said by a historical figure be evidenced?

The trick is, no witnessing can be made more valid then those martyred themselves for what is said and done.

 

[Hedshaker]

How come a contemporary person be more accurate than the one close to that period of time?

It's the evidence that needs to be contemporary. Had Josephus Flavius been a contemporary of Jesus it would be different, although, I'm sure you are aware that, on this point, the writing of Josephus' is considered fraudulent, even by some Scholars.

No, no one can be more specific on what he's doing on Jan 01, 1470. If on the other hand history can be evidenced, you can always tell what he's doing on that day without referencing to any history books.

Moreover, can you name one of these so-called evidence?

This guy seem to have it covered

Jesus vs. George Washington

This George Washington thing has been done to death. I'm surprised people are still digging it up. Oh well, they say the old ones are the best and there's no reason why that shouldn't apply to apologetics as well. :kookoo:

On the other hand, if what is said in the Bible is true, what else can be done for this truth to be conveyed?

Well that's the thing isn't it? What is true? From what I see Christians are far more concerned about cherished beliefs than ever they are about any honest search for the "Truth tm"

 

[Hawkins]

It's the evidence that needs to be contemporary. Had Josephus Flavius been a contemporary of Jesus it would be different, although, I'm sure you are aware that the writing of Josephus' is considered fraudulent, even by some Scholars.



Well that's the thing isn't it? What is true? From what I see Christians are far more concerned about cherished beliefs and any honest search for the "Truth tm"

All in all, I bet that you don't even have the evidence that the grandpa of your own grandpa ever existed (or just show us your evidence).

Washington is used to illustrate the point because he's famous for you and I to have a common understanding. If i am talking about a no body then no one can ever provide any evidence to support his history. Jesus is actually such a no body outside the circle of the Jews concerning Him.

 

[Hedshaker]

All in all, I bet that you don't even have the evidence that the grandpa of your own grandpa ever existed (or just show us your evidence).

Why should I care? No one is trying to shape my world view based on what the grandpa of my grandpa said or did. But either way none of that has the slightest impact on whether there was a historical Jesus that performed supernatural magic and was resurrected from the dead. I know you're desperate to shift the burden of proof. If I can't show positive proof, beyond any doubt, that Napoleon Bonaparte was real then your god-man must have not only been real but performed a gravity denying walk on water, fed 5000 people with a fish sandwich, was born of virgin and then came back to life after being clinically dead for 3 days. Really?

Washington is used to illustrate the point because he's famous for you and I to have a common understanding. If i am talking about a no body then no one can ever provide any evidence to support his history. Jesus is actually such a no body outside the circle of the Jews concerning Him.

There may well have been an actual Jesus character on whom the stories were attributed, beyond that it's all up in the air. How, for example, would you go about proving the baby in the manger was the same dude that got nailed to a cross thirty years later? Because the Bible tells you so? And you want me to accept that as true unless I can prove beyond doubt that Genghis Khan existed. Come on now!?

For your information if the grandpa of my grandpa didn't exist then I wouldn't be here and you would be talking to yourself.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

How do you know if you haven't conducted your own critical examination?

Biblical Criticism





Then scepticism is reasonable where extraordinary claims are proposed.



And now you attack the person because your cherished beliefs are questioned. I shouldn't blame you really since you have no evidence for the actual arguments. None of this has anything to do with "what I want" nor can you show it as such.

I know all about skepticism of Jesus and the Bible. I was a huge skeptic. I wanted empirical evidence of His realness. Of his word. A doubting Thomas so to speak. But I couldn't escape the fact evil was real, not just cognitively but a real presence. I felt it. It was scary. It had sway over me. It was working against me and any goodness in me and my life. The darkness was closing in, it sought to destroy me.
I take no credit, but with all hope of life holding on with the thinnest of threads He convinced me to take a leap of trust, to stop running from Him to listen to the small voice that tried to lead me down the road of goodness, to Him and love and peace. Laying down my pride and making a decision to give Him a chance to humble myself and my heart cried I need you, His very real loving, joyful, peaceful, presence was overwhelming good, exhilarating. My communing with Him is so much more than proof, evidence, confirmation of His realness. His presence convicted me of the truth of what His word says. His word or dogma didn't convince me of His realness His truth. Everything He says to do is confirmed by His joyful presence. My disobedience is met with absence of His goodness. Evil, sin repel Him, He is Holy; He can not take part in evil.
You can not disprove His supernatural existence yet you are certain He doesn't exist. Logically impossible. Witnesses testify to His supernatural presence. Test the evidence. Try Him out. If you lay down your life and heart in humility and trust and surrender and seek Him you will find Him. Unless you don't want to find Him...

 

[Hedshaker]

I know all about skepticism of Jesus and the Bible. I was a huge skeptic. I wanted empirical evidence of His realness. Of his word. A doubting Thomas so to speak. But I couldn't escape the fact evil was real, not just cognitively but a real presence. I felt it. It was scary. It had sway over me. It was working against me and any goodness in me and my life. The darkness was closing in, it sought to destroy me.
I take no credit, but with all hope of life holding on with the thinnest of threads He convinced me to take a leap of trust, to stop running from Him to listen to the small voice that tried to lead me down the road of goodness, to Him and love and peace. Laying down my pride and making a decision to give Him a chance to humble myself and my heart cried I need you, His very real loving, joyful, peaceful, presence was overwhelming good, exhilarating. My communing with Him is so much more than proof, evidence, confirmation of His realness. His presence convicted me of the truth of what His word says. His word or dogma didn't convince me of His realness His truth. Everything He says to do is confirmed by His joyful presence. My disobedience is met with absence of His goodness. Evil, sin repel Him, He is Holy; He can not take part in evil.
You can not disprove His supernatural existence yet you are certain He doesn't exist. Logically impossible. Witnesses testify to His supernatural presence. Test the evidence. Try Him out. If you lay down your life and heart in humility and trust and surrender and seek Him you will find Him. Unless you don't want to find Him...

Your emotional response is no more than mindless preaching, and your appeal to warm and fuzzies is not evidence of the claims you make. I know you can't see that in your present state of mind but hopefully one day you will.

I will leave it there but request that if you insist on replying to me please give the preaching a rest. Not only is it a wast of your time but it is an insult to my intelligence. I am not going to buy into the existence of your imaginary friend based solely on you says so. Not going to happen and I am missing out on nothing.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Your emotional response is no more than mindless preaching, and your appeal to warm and fuzzies is not evidence of the claims you make. I know you can't see that in your present state of mind but hopefully one day you will.

I will leave it there but request that if you insist on replying to me please give the preaching a rest. Not only is it a wast of your time but it is an insult to my intelligence. I am not going to buy into the existence of your imaginary friend based solely on you says so. Not going to happen and I am missing out on nothing.

You can dismiss me and the countless others who have experienced the goodness of Jesus Christ. You can refuse to seek Him to surrender to Him. You can snub your nose at what countless say is good, and say. I don't believe you and I'm not gonna try it, no matter how many say He is real and good. You can say I'm not gonna try him just cause so many say He is good. And you will miss out on the only way your science will confirm him. Trail and error. Or your pride can keep you holding your breath that He will stand before in all His Glory before it's too late for you. It your choice.

How do you expect to be on a theology site and not hear about what God does?

 

[Jose Fly]

You can dismiss me and the countless others who have experienced the goodness of Allah. You can refuse to seek Him to surrender to Him. You can snub your nose at what countless say is good, and say. You can say I'm not gonna try him just cause so many say He is good. And you will miss out on the only way your science will confirm Allah. Trial and error. Or your pride can keep you holding your breath that He will stand before in all His Glory before it's too late for you. It your choice.

Is that a compelling argument for Islam? No? Now you know why it's not a compelling argument for Christianity either.

 

[whitestone]

I'm still just tickled that the atheist believe there is nothing after death,,but they still try so hard to save me,a christian,,,,,"from what they believe is nothing".

 

[Hedshaker]

You can dismiss me and the countless others who have experienced the goodness of Allah. You can refuse to seek Him to surrender to Him. You can snub your nose at what countless say is good, and say. You can say I'm not gonna try him just cause so many say He is good. And you will miss out on the only way your science will confirm Allah. Trial and error. Or your pride can keep you holding your breath that He will stand before in all His Glory before it's too late for you. It your choice.

Is that a compelling argument for Islam? No? Now you know why it's not a compelling argument for Christianity either.

Absolutely, and this has been pointed out to him many times, yet he is unable, or unwilling to even acknowledge the point.

 

[Jose Fly]

Absolutely, and this has been pointed out to him many times, yet he is unable, or unwilling to even acknowledge the point.

I've found that it's virtually impossible to get fundamentalists to consider their apologetics in the context of another religion, and see if they remain persuasive.

Of course, I've also found that it's virtually impossible to get fundamentalists to think at all....:chuckle:

 

[alwight]

I'm still just tickled that the atheist believe there is nothing after death,,but they still try so hard to save me,a christian,,,,,"from what they believe is nothing".

Well, many atheists seem to have taken many years coming to realise that all the nonsense they were led to believe by Christians over the years, such as eternal damnation, lake of fire, etc. was in fact nothing to worry about at all.
Now that some non-believers choose to dish it back isn't really something that too many Christians should be complaining about imo. :nono:

 

[Hedshaker]

How do you expect to be on a theology site and not hear about what God does?

You have no idea what a God does any more than you have been able to produce a single shred of evidence that yours, in particular, actually exists.

And in addition, this particular thread was specifically directed at atheists, and if you think atheists and sceptics are going to be swayed by preaching then you have much to learn. There are many on this board who can hold a conversation without preaching at people.

You can believe what you like, I don't care what you do with your mind, but I value my rationality and I am not going to buy a bunch of mumbo jumbo from some dude on the internet.

I have urged you to make your own critical examination of your cherished beliefs but you won't do that. Your preaching is wasted on me so please find someone else to preach at. Thanks.

 

[whitestone]

Well, many atheists seem to have taken many years coming to realise that all the nonsense they were led to believe by Christians over the years, such as eternal damnation, lake of fire, etc. was in fact nothing to worry about at all.
Now that some non-believers choose to dish it back isn't really something that too many Christians should be complaining about imo. :nono:

Yep Ive heard a lot of people say they were atheist but met actually very few. I once worked with a man who said he and his family was and I eventually did believe they were. After knowing them for about a year his wife and him split up,she first moved in with her two sons and then while they were at work she took everything they owned to the pawn shop, and disappeared. When me and her husband were talking about it I said I couldn't believe she did that to her own children. He told me it didn't matter if they were kin or not because when they die none would be judged.

 

[alwight]

Yep Ive heard a lot of people say they were atheist but met actually very few. I once worked with a man who said he and his family was and I eventually did believe they were. After knowing them for about a year his wife and him split up,she first moved in with her two sons and then while they were at work she took everything they owned to the pawn shop, and disappeared. When me and her husband were talking about it I said I couldn't believe she did that to her own children. He told me it didn't matter if they were kin or not because when they die none would be judged.

Perhaps you should get out more?:sherlock:
However, proportionally less atheists are in prison, but perhaps they are just smarter than Christians at not getting caught?

 

[whitestone]

Perhaps you should get out more?:sherlock:
However, proportionally less atheists are in prison, but perhaps they are just smarter than Christians at not getting caught?

"Not getting caught",,,you convinced me that you are also. After that his father would come to the store and tell him the same thing. That is their parents were atheist also I listened to his own father explain to him that there were newbies,want to be's and actual atheist who really don't believe in hell fire,judgement day ect.

He convinced his son I suppose as he also did his two grandsons about the getting caught part you mentioned. One of his sons was shot during a holdup the other went to prison. The dad(one I worked with) finally made up his mind that it didn't matter if he robbed banks,sold drugs,ect. to him all was fair game if their was no judgment.

He told me when he left that the only thing that didn't make sense was for him to be held into slavery as a worker as if he wasn't actually an atheist and that he was planning to do whatever to become rich and live the rest of his life with as much drugs,alcohol,women ect. as he could posses.

He told me that one thing or the other would happen he would either get away with it or get caught and since he knew it he would fight to the death and then there was nothing. Or else he would get away with the thing and live the rest of his life with everything he wanted. It didn't work though his father was rich and he tried to rob him and his father shot him,,,

 

[alwight]

"Not getting caught",,,you convinced me that you are also. After that his father would come to the store and tell him the same thing. That is their parents were atheist also I listened to his own father explain to him that there were newbies,want to be's and actual atheist who really don't believe in hell fire,judgement day ect.

He convinced his son I suppose as he also did his two grandsons about the getting caught part you mentioned. One of his sons was shot during a holdup the other went to prison. The dad(one I worked with) finally made up his mind that it didn't matter if he robbed banks,sold drugs,ect. to him all was fair game if their was no judgment.

He told me when he left that the only thing that didn't make sense was for him to be held into slavery as a worker as if he wasn't actually an atheist and that he was planning to do whatever to become rich and live the rest of his life with as much drugs,alcohol,women ect. as he could posses.

He told me that one thing or the other would happen he would either get away with it or get caught and since he knew it he would fight to the death and then there was nothing. Or else he would get away with the thing and live the rest of his life with everything he wanted. It didn't work though his father was rich and he tried to rob him and his father shot him,,,

So are you are telling me then that without the invisible moral leash and fear of the wrath of God atheists all become amoral dogs or menaces to society? :think:

Still doesn't really account for why Christians, as clearly they do, go to jail at all, never mind in proportionally greater numbers than atheists?

 

[Hedshaker]

"Not getting caught",,,you convinced me that you are also. After that his father would come to the store and tell him the same thing. That is their parents were atheist also I listened to his own father explain to him that there were newbies,want to be's and actual atheist who really don't believe in hell fire,judgement day ect.

He convinced his son I suppose as he also did his two grandsons about the getting caught part you mentioned. One of his sons was shot during a holdup the other went to prison. The dad(one I worked with) finally made up his mind that it didn't matter if he robbed banks,sold drugs,ect. to him all was fair game if their was no judgment.

He told me when he left that the only thing that didn't make sense was for him to be held into slavery as a worker as if he wasn't actually an atheist and that he was planning to do whatever to become rich and live the rest of his life with as much drugs,alcohol,women ect. as he could posses.

He told me that one thing or the other would happen he would either get away with it or get caught and since he knew it he would fight to the death and then there was nothing. Or else he would get away with the thing and live the rest of his life with everything he wanted. It didn't work though his father was rich and he tried to rob him and his father shot him,,,

Lol, if you're thinking of entering the fiction writing profession I wouldn't give up your day job just yet atrol:

 

[whitestone]

So are you are telling me then that without the invisible moral leash and fear of the wrath of God atheists all become amoral dogs or menaces to society? :think:

Still doesn't really account for why Christians, as clearly they do, go to jail at all, never mind in proportionally greater numbers than atheists?

well no,,,just the "want to be's",,,

 

[whitestone]

Lol, if you're thinking of entering the fiction writing profession I wouldn't give up your day job just yet atrol:

lol,,I'm a Christian I was 28 when I retired,,,