Atheists, do you hope you're right?

[PureX]

I could not even explain how real and good His presence is if I tried. The phrase "High on Jesus" with a real, physical, emotional, spiritual experience could not even begin to give it justice.

I have been there, and I was just a child, so it's unlikely that I somehow self-induced the experience.

On the other hand, I am also intelligent and honest enough to admit that I do not know what happened. I know what I thought was happening at the time. And I can't say I was wrong. But I can't say I wasn't, either.

Look at it this way; if God were to stand before you in a blaze of glory, how would you know it was God, and not some clever alien, or some demon, or some magician's trick? Or your own mind playing tricks on you? Once the experience transcends our understanding, it could be anything.

I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a theist because of my personal experience of God. I'm a theists because that's what works for me. And that doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

You do realise that sensation is capable of being felt with not-real things too?

Combined with His love and deep healing of my hearts emotional wounds gives me complete assurance and conviction that He is all that He says He is.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Well, at least you listened and can see there are people who were once in as deep as you but managed to recover. I do not doubt your sincerity but I've seen not a single shred of evidence that anything is going on outside your head.

But alas, it's your mind to do with as you will.

Regards

You don't know how I was before His love, and you don't believe me, but there those that do, and have seen the good He has done in me.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I have been there, and I was just a child, so it's unlikely that I somehow self-induced the experience.

On the other hand, I am also intelligent and honest enough to admit that I do not know what happened. I know what I thought was happening at the time. And I can't say I was wrong. But I can't say I wasn't, either.

Look at it this way; if God were to stand before you in a blaze of glory, how would you know it was God, and not some clever alien, or some demon, or some magician's trick? Or your own mind playing tricks on you? Once the experience transcends our understanding, it could be anything.

I am not an atheist. But I'm also not a theist because of my personal experience of God. I'm a theists because that's what works for me. And that doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

People's need for love and the way they have been burned by people and churches and even their ideas or someone's ideas about God can most certainly keep them in a place where intimacy with God or anyone else is the scariest thing on earth. But Agape love is the truth and the way to heal their hearts and lives, wether they accept this or not is the question.

 

[Tyrathca]

Combined with His love and deep healing of my hearts emotional wounds gives me complete assurance and conviction that He is all that He says He is.

Your god doesn't need to be real to be psychologically helpful to you. Furthermore if your god was so good at "healing emotional wounds" why don't we see a massive discrepancy in the mental health of atheists versus devout Christians?

 

[PureX]

People's need for love and the way they have been burned by people and churches and even their ideas or someone's ideas about God can most certainly keep them in a place where intimacy with God or anyone else is the scariest thing on earth. But Agape love is the truth and the way to heal their hearts and lives, wether they accept this or not is the question.

Not everyone needs to feel "intimacy with God". I don't, even though I have felt it. For whatever reason, I do not feel any great need to repeat the experience. Nor do I feel any great need to define it for others.

I do, however, feel the need to believe in and trust in the Great Mystery of all being, and to trust that the 'sum of it all' is both benevolent and divine. I am a far better man for believing that, and I am far happier, too.

The thing that I think is important for me to understand and remember, is that my experience is not everyone else's experience. I am not the yardstick for anyone else's life, experiences, or understanding. My truth is therefor not going to be true for everyone else. So I can share what I've learned, and hope it helps others, but I'd be a fool to insist that it is the universal or absolute truth of things. Because I'm just not equipped to know that.

I'm OK with atheists being atheists. They are no more right or wrong then I am. We're all just doing the best we can with the information we've been given.

 

[alwight]

You don't know how I was before His love, and you don't believe me, but there those that do, and have seen the good He has done in me.

With respect why do you not keep your "love" to yourself since without some kind of empirical evidence and for want of a better expression talk is cheap?
Just be glad that you are now in a better place than you were. lain:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Your god doesn't need to be real to be psychologically helpful to you. Furthermore if your god was so good at "healing emotional wounds" why don't we see a massive discrepancy in the mental health of atheists versus devout Christians?

So someone does something horrific to you. Like the Amish school house murders. And they can try to forgive based on an idea. The idea of forgiveness has been around long before Christ. But has been unachievable for most that have had horror and tragedy done to them, simply evil. Your bias tells you it was just the idea that got them to find love, mercy, and peace through that impossible situation, but the reality is it is only the love, forgiveness and presence of God that can do that.

There is plenty of research indicates the happiness of the religious and the difference God makes in people's lives.

Has the thought ever crossed your mind; that you really just don't want to believe there is a God?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Not everyone needs to feel "intimacy with God". I don't, even though I have felt it. For whatever reason, I do not feel any great need to repeat the experience. Nor do I feel any great need to define it for others.

I do, however, feel the need to believe in and trust in the Great Mystery of all being, and to trust that the 'sum of it all' is both benevolent and divine. I am a far better man for believing that, and I am far happier, too.

The thing that I think is important for me to understand and remember, is that my experience is not everyone else's experience. I am not the yardstick for anyone else's life, experiences, or understanding. My truth is therefor not going to be true for everyone else. So I can share what I've learned, and hope it helps others, but I'd be a fool to insist that it is the universal or absolute truth of things. Because I'm just not equipped to know that.

I'm OK with atheists being atheists. They are no more right or wrong then I am. We're all just doing the best we can with the information we've been given.

I'm glad your view of Him has helped you in life. Do you wonder if He wants closer fellowship or fellowship (a close relationship with you?

I have kept him at arms length at times it has never been helpful.

He has convicted me of His love and how he wants me to plants seeds of truth to help others find Him and His love and His Kingdom. I understand it may fall on deaf ears. That is between them and Him.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

With respect why do you not keep your "love" to yourself since without some kind of empirical evidence and for want of a better expression talk is cheap?
Just be glad that you are now in a better place than you were. lain:

"Anyone who does not love, does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8

I care about you too much to not try and help you to see the truth of who God is. Hopefully you will hear and see more of this on TOL. It is what God is all about.

 

[Hedshaker]

You don't know how I was before His love, and you don't believe me, but there those that do, and have seen the good He has done in me.

And again, how do you account for people who have made huge changes in their lives to which they credit a different deity, or nothing supernatural at all. You keep on and on ignoring this point and claiming it was your special "He" that did it. If you have made changes for the better then good for you. If you think your religious beliefs have helped then fine, but don't go claiming a special cause when others have done the same without the help of your "He".

You have presented no evidence for any "He" so it's safe to conclude that you alone actually did it. Well done!

 

[PureX]

I'm glad your view of Him has helped you in life. Do you wonder if He wants closer fellowship or fellowship (a close relationship with you?

I believe the way we "relate to" God is through each other, and through the world. I don't see the goal of that relationship being to get "closer" so much as to become more kind, more generous, more thoughtful, and more forgiving.

He has convicted me of His love and how he wants me to plants seeds of truth to help others find Him and His love and His Kingdom. I understand it may fall on deaf ears. That is between them and Him.

The truth is what is. It speaks for itself. But we do have a choice in how we respond to it, and the choices we make will effect us, and others, greatly. If a religious belief helps people to make good choices for themselves and others, I applaud them. If rejecting religious belief is what it takes to create a positive effect, then I applaud that, too. I don't think what we believe really maters. What matters is who we become because of our beliefs.

 

[Tyrathca]

So someone does something horrific to you. Like the Amish school house murders. And they can try to forgive based on an idea.

Well yeah. Its the belief and its affect on a persons psychology that matters, its actual truth is irrelevant.

The idea of forgiveness has been around long before Christ. But has been unachievable for most that have had horror and tragedy done to them, simply evil. Your bias tells you it was just the idea that got them to find love, mercy, and peace through that impossible situation, but the reality is it is only the love, forgiveness and presence of God that can do that.

By that measure Muslims could equally claim that people actually blowing themselves up requires the presence of Allah in their hearts. Both would be unsubstantiated claims that A. a certain attribute is somehow vitally important B. that claimed a deity uniquely fulfills this in a manner which is dependent on its actual existence not just belief and C. claim that this fullfillment results in an observable difference in people.

The problem is that A. is arbitrary and unsubstantiated. B. is also unsubstantiated and even flat out false that the actual deity is needed rather than just belief (not that you've even tried to show that) and C. is unsubstantiated and also seems to be false (Christians don't appear to be significantly more likely to forgive than many non-christian groups, unless you have some evidence to present)

There is plenty of research indicates the happiness of the religious and the difference God makes in people's lives.

There is plenty of evidence that shows a slight difference, most of which is probably attributable to having a easily accessible community to interact with weekly (the difference is not impressive such that one should even entertain a deity as an explanation - unless your deity is a feeble and impotent being)

Has the thought ever crossed your mind; that you really just don't want to believe there is a God?

Actually the idea of some benevolent deity and a benign afterlife is somewhat appealing. Though for sure some versions professed by the religious I would certainly hope aren't true. But what I want is irrelevant, I don't want humanity to be limited by relativity and the speed of light either but so far it looks like we are. I also don't want to die but I will and i believe it.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

And again, how do you account for people who have made huge changes in their lives to which they credit a different deity, or nothing supernatural at all. You keep on and on ignoring this point and claiming it was your special "He" that did it. If you have made changes for the better then good for you. If you think your religious beliefs have helped then fine, but don't go claiming a special cause when others have done the same without the help of your "He".

You have presented no evidence for any "He" so it's safe to conclude that you alone actually did it. Well done!

When someone testifies. It is either believed or it isn't. Im testifying to His real love and presence. You don't believe me. Just like many did not believe the testimony of Jesus's disciples who say they witnessed the resurected Jesus with their eyes. So they were either crazy, liars or truthful. You've made the same choice about my testimony. Because you don't believe it does not mean it is not evidence of the truth. Personal love of God through Jesus whose truth is self evident as the creator is not like any other religion. The choice is yours to seek and find or wait until you face Him at the end when it is too late. May His Grace find you!

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I believe the way we "relate to" God is through each other, and through the world. I don't see the goal of that relationship being to get "closer" so much as to become more kind, more generous, more thoughtful, and more forgiving.
The truth is what is. It speaks for itself. But we do have a choice in how we respond to it, and the choices we make will effect us, and others, greatly. If a religious belief helps people to make good choices for themselves and others, I applaud them. If rejecting religious belief is what it takes to create a positive effect, then I applaud that, too. I don't think what we believe really maters. What matters is who we become because of our beliefs.

So you believe in Christ, but not what He said, or the disciples who testified about Him?

The truth is what it is. Not what we want it to be.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Well yeah. Its the belief and its affect on a persons psychology that matters, its actual truth is irrelevant.

By that measure Muslims could equally claim that people actually blowing themselves up requires the presence of Allah in their hearts. Both would be unsubstantiated claims that A. a certain attribute is somehow vitally important B. that claimed a deity uniquely fulfills this in a manner which is dependent on its actual existence not just belief and C. claim that this fullfillment results in an observable difference in people.

The problem is that A. is arbitrary and unsubstantiated. B. is also unsubstantiated and even flat out false that the actual deity is needed rather than just belief (not that you've even tried to show that) and C. is unsubstantiated and also seems to be false (Christians don't appear to be significantly more likely to forgive than many non-christian groups, unless you have some evidence to present)

There is plenty of evidence that shows a slight difference, most of which is probably attributable to having a easily accessible community to interact with weekly (the difference is not impressive such that one should even entertain a deity as an explanation - unless your deity is a feeble and impotent being)
Actually the idea of some benevolent deity and a benign afterlife is somewhat appealing. Though for sure some versions professed by the religious I would certainly hope aren't true. But what I want is irrelevant, I don't want humanity to be limited by relativity and the speed of light either but so far it looks like we are. I also don't want to die but I will and i believe it.

It is relevant if it is true. When you see love and forgiveness you will see a Christian.

 

[rstrats]

Hedshaker,
re: ""The main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation."

Actually, the wager is flawed right from the start because it is based on the notion that beliefs can be consciously chosen, and of course that is impossible.

 

[Tyrathca]

It is relevant if it is true. When you see love and forgiveness you will see a Christian.

are you saying that non-christians can't express love and forgiveness? That is a very bold and insulting claim, care to back it up with some evidence beyond just your say so?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

are you saying that non-christians can't express love and forgiveness? That is a very bold and insulting claim, care to back it up with some evidence beyond just your say so?

I am saying, "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8
And just because someone claims to be a Christ follower or Christian, does not mean they are.

 

[PureX]

So you believe in Christ, but not what He said, or the disciples who testified about Him?

That question doesn't make any sense to me. 'Christ' is a way of being, not a religious dogma. I trust in that way of being. I don't much care about the religious dogma associated with it. Some people care about the religious dogma, and that's OK if it works for them. It doesn't work for me that way. I don't believe things because someone said them, wrote them, or otherwise proclaimed them to be true. I believe them because I find them to be true in my own experience of life.

The truth is what it is. Not what we want it to be.

Actually, what we want it to be is also a part of what it is. That's how faith becomes actualized. Wanting to be a good person, for example, is partly how we already are, and how we better become, a good person.