Atheists, do you hope you're right?

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Losing God Part 1

This is the first of a four part series of videos. If you are as open minded as you claim you will take the time. Please note how sincere and polite this youtuber is.

I don't expect it will change your mind but it should hopefully show you a different perspective on just how fickle beliefs can be.

I was unable to open it. Can you post a YouTube link.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Many Christians try to stay out of the paradox that their interpretation of scripture and the gospel logically entails. In their view on one hand the Bible claims that all humans have knowledge of God, but they also claim that you cannot have knowledge of God without reading and accepting their view of the Bible.

The bible says that man is without excuse for not seeking God because of the glory of what he made and their evil pride keeps them from knowing Him more intimately. (Romans 1).
The Bible also describes Christianity as a growing fellowship and intimacy and knowledge of God based on Christ's reconciling sacrifice and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person turning to, trusting and surrendering to God. (Colossians 1).
I'm sorry I don't see the paradox.

 

[serpentdove]

Talking of honesty here, I honestly believe that some ancient guy called Paul was in no way an authority on what I know and nor, in all honesty, are you. :nono:

God is an authority on what you know (Ps 139:4). You are responsible to him (Ac 17:27).

See:

Inspired Scripture

 

[noguru]

The bible says that man is without excuse for not seeking God because of the glory of what he made and their evil pride keeps them from knowing Him more intimately. (Romans 1).
The Bible also describes Christianity as a growing fellowship and intimacy and knowledge of God based on Christ's reconciling sacrifice and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person turning to, trusting and surrendering to God. (Colossians 1).
I'm sorry I don't see the paradox.

The paradox is really only in those specifics of the "fundamentalist view", which I described quite clearly (and I think accurately - though I am open to see where I might be wrong). If you disagree with my description, then point out where you think I am wrong. Don't reword it in with your slant to try and hide the paradox. How were my words inaccurate in describing the "fundamentalist" view?

 

[PureX]

Someday men shall not be persons to fear because of their great physical strength?

Fear doesn't give anyone any real authority. It only allows them to perpetuate an illusion of it.

 

[Hedshaker]

I was unable to open it. Can you post a YouTube link.

Sure, click here

It's in several parts. I found it interesting and its author certainly sounds sincere.

Regards

 

[PureX]

It actually takes humility to be rigorous in our research and accurate in our perceptions. This is a grave problem I see with many Christians. They have simply replaced the support for justifying their over bloated ego from what was once our human abilities to what they now claim as belief in God. They are still playing the same game of "believing their superiority means they can overlook some things, and how does one know what they can overlook?". They become isolated and weakened from living in their Ivory Tower. They mistake isolation for solitude, and they give up their intellectual power because they believe they have already found all the answers.

"A wise man learns more from a fool, than a fool learns from a wise man."

They mistake faith in their own religious beliefs about God for faith in God. And because they make this mistake, they then assume that to contradict their religious beliefs is to contradict God (both internally and externally). From then on they can't be wrong. And so everyone else must be.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Many Christians try to stay out of the paradox that their interpretation of scripture and the gospel logically entails. In their view on one hand the Bible claims that all humans have knowledge of God, but they also claim that you cannot have knowledge of God without reading and accepting their view of the Bible.

'Reading and accepting their view'. I didn't give that last phrase enough thought. Sorry.I hold fast that it is the job of the Holy Spirit to guide us into knowledge of Himself. I think where a lot of 'Christians' go wrong is not seeking Him for that and relying on man to do it for them. In relationships we can not get to know someone second hand.

The question will come isnt the Bible second hand? The idea, and what I have found is with my connection with the Holy Spirit He brings the word alive in me and confirms in my heart mind and soul the truth of it.

Never the less I see your point and the error of 'Christian Teachers' who are not leading people to find truth through their connection to Jesus.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Yes but unless you have an unusual philosophy on religion you can't run away from that punitive law giver origins. Much of the bible (especially old testament) is filed with it. To claim the Savior narrative exclusively is a cop out that ignores your religions origins and original stories of god not to mention 2 millennia of interpretation of something which supposedly hasn't changed in that time yet has.

The punitive law giver issue is answered by the Cross. A God willing to pay the price Himself necessary to satisfy His Justice and loving mercy.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

If I knew of a certainty that there were justice in an afterlife, it would convince me even more that your god is merely your delusion.

I can see the appeal of this idea, that justice will come in the end to all, that the self-righteous will get the final and unavoidable last laugh. But the more I listen to the voices that clamor for this idea, the more certain I am that it is fantasy, and the more relieved I am that I don't have to worry about their prognostications. Perhaps there is a conception of a god who might be just who could pull of real final justice in the end, but if there is, no religion has yet imagined him.

How bout one that shows love and justice by His suffering for those who do not deserve it?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

It is the struggle that makes Buddhism become the chosen path. It is in reconciling the struggle that the "middle way" is achieved. And it is the "middle way" that leads to contentment through balance in all things.



As much as a divine being might be helpful to some. I tend to see the importance being in a divine realm. Even Christians are seeking a divine realm, though they feel it must be through a divine being (and some think it is only in the afterlife). Buddhism only requires a divine realm, a divine being is optional.

Be that as it may, I think some people find it difficult to forgive themselves. And I think Jesus realized this. Hence he gave his path freely to others so that they may discard the bag of rocks they have been carrying and find enlightenment.

As much as the human heart desires to be personally loved; to me it seems to naturally point to Buddha's flaws.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Some atheists are more humble than some Christians I have witnessed. Some Christians only use their belief in God as a way to feel superior to others. Which is why I kind of leaned towards the Calvinist view at one point. Calvinism in its true essence, though it may seem to make humans haughty, generally brings greater humility than Open Theism. Many Open Theists are quite taken with their choice to believe, and feel that they are superior to others that have not made that choice. Calvinists generally accept that it was not their doing, and hence they have the saying "There but for the grace of God go I" and sincerely believe that. Which makes them humble and empathetic to the "non elect". Since no man can really know who is "elected", only God knows that.

The Bible is clear that humility is the mark and that it all depends on Grace. As an open theist myself, I see no reason to lessen humility if one accepts that it is a gift, that must be humbly accepted.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Study further- you are apparently still ignorant. For starters- read the Old Testament. If that is too hard, try watching "Fiddler on the Roof", then tell us what Tevye's relationship with God was like.

By the way, I hope that my wife won't burn supper, since I often end up washing the pot.

If you could next time put my whole quote. I thought I put the relationship in the context of being reconciled by the blood of Christ. As the book of Hebrews points out, the only thing that can clear the conscience of a man.

 

[noguru]

As much as the human heart desires to be personally loved; to me it seems to naturally point to Buddha's flaws.

I am not really sure what you are saying there. It sounds good but I see no coherent point.

It is a lonely unfulfilled person who desperately seeks love from others. It is a grateful and content person who gives their love freely to others.

People are often trying to fill that whole with the wrong thing. They seek external validation and sacrifice introspection. A balanced person is not so concerned with external validation, because they realize that others cannot see their path as clearly as they. They persevere whether recognized or not by others, because they know the value of what they seek. They do not need others to confirm its value, though they do seek others for counsel but not as dictators.

 

[aikido7]

I am not really sure what you are saying there. It sounds good but I see no coherent point.

It is a lonely unfulfilled person who desperately seeks love from others. It is a grateful and content person who gives their love freely to others.

People are often trying to fill that whole with the wrong thing. They seek external validation and sacrifice introspection. A balanced person is not so concerned with external validation, because they realize that others cannot see their path as clearly as they. They persevere whether recognized or not by others, because they know the value of what they seek. They do not need others to confirm its value, though they do seek others for counsel but not as dictators.

This would seem to fly in the face of following teachings from the church pulpit. Authority figures' pronouncements are usually taken as "gospel truth."

 

[Tyrathca]

The punitive law giver issue is answered by the Cross. A God willing to pay the price Himself necessary to satisfy His Justice and loving mercy.

But the cross doesn't negate the fact that god was and is still a punitive law giver. All it does is add that he arbitrarily changes his mind about their enforcement and has a peculiar sense of justice whereby him partaking in a temporary suffering (the nature of which is not specified well, was it just getting crucified?) gets people out of the eternal suffering that he himself says they should get.

 

[The Horn]

I'm an agnostic . I don't know whether there is an afterlife or not . Maybe yes, maybe no . The question of whether a god exists is basically meaningless and unanswerable .
First of all, define god ? Different people have different conceptions of what a god might or might not be .
I don't believe in the conventional Christian idea of a god as an old man in the sky who created the world in one week and who created Adam and Eve etc . This is basically an imaginary bronze age Semitic sky god . A god who wants everybody to praise him constantly and who supposedly hates gay people .

 

[Town Heretic]

A few Facts about atheists, according to PEW:

Their numbers have increased, but marginally, over time.

They tend to be male and younger than the general population and four in ten have college degrees.

14% of those who call themselves atheists profess a belief in some form of God/universal spirit. I'm guessing this part of the atheist crowd would be in the six out of ten who don't have college educations...or dictionaries.

 

[alwight]

14% of those who call themselves atheists profess a belief in some form of God/universal spirit. I'm guessing this part of the atheist crowd would be in the six out of ten who don't have college educations...or dictionaries.

Belief/disbelief isn't about certainty or knowledge it's about a tendency toward either one or the other. You can't really call yourself an atheist if you tend toward belief but even a more genuine atheist can still have plenty of room for doubt, just as do many theists.

 

[Breathe]

A few Facts about atheists, according to PEW:

Their numbers have increased, but marginally, over time.

They tend to be male and younger than the general population and four in ten have college degrees.

14% of those who call themselves atheists profess a belief in some form of God/universal spirit. I'm guessing this part of the atheist crowd would be in the six out of ten who don't have college educations...or dictionaries.

A few of my son's friends are/claim to be atheists. All are 24-26, college educated, bright and articulate, raised in church. It saddens me no end, and I do hope they will come to their senses in time, as did my son. In my opinion, the modern day college religious studies departments have something to do with this. Most of the classes seem to be taught by professors who are not believers themselves, and who delight in pointing out the discrepancies that can be found in any religion - at least this was the case at the university my son graduated from. His religion minor nearly destroyed his faith - in part because these kids are led to believe their professors are the ultimate authority on the subjects they teach, and they are admired and respected by the students, giving them somewhat undue influence on the kids.