Atheists believe....?

[Hedshaker]

A reality with no hope in this blink of an eye existence...doesn't sound so meaningful. Its natural to be deathly afraid of death, but some have hope, something that is not natural.

I care far more about truth than I ever would about what may feel good but lack sound, testable evidence in the real world. But, if you feel that your faith or some vague personal experience somehow trumps demonstrable evidence then that's your prerogative.

However, part of the trouble with that approach is how at odds you are with the vast array of other religions and supernatural belief systems out there, many of which may appear somewhat odd, being mutually exclusive to your own beliefs. Naturally, your magic is better than their magic which they, of course, all claim about yours. And it doesn't end there, does it? Even within Christianity or Islam or "whatever" there is, without doubt, very little you guys agree on, this very board being a tiny tip of the iceberg.

Therefore I suggest open minded scepticism to be perfectly reasonable and rational a world view. I say this not because I hate God or that I'm addicted to sin, or any other such nonsense, but because during this one "blink of an eye existence" that we can know of for sure, I wish to believe as many true things as I can make possible while at the same time rejecting as many false things as I can and I see no other method for achieving these goals.....

Tis that simple :think:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

That or delusion perhaps?

And perhaps the lie is that there is no love, telling you not seek it.

I saw a wonderful video where an atheist barber was brought in a long haired gent, by a theist. The barber said he has long hair because he doesn't come to me. God is waiting for us all to reach out to Him, He is not far from anyone.The only thing between us and Him is us.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

There is plenty of hope - hope to leave the world a better place than when you arrived, gain a form of immortality by raising successful children and grandchildren, contribute to society and make it a better place for having you around, and so on.

Don't focus on the selfish personal rewards you imagine are available in an afterlife - concentrate on the real here and now and make it better for everyone else.

How bout that love never ends, that you can love with your loved ones beyond this mist of a life. Don't kid yourself that this life isn't faster than we can even fathom.

I don't focus on my rewards. I focus on love with God right here, right now. Shared love here and now with my brothers and sisters here and now and then.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Atheists believe? that not being alive didn't bother anyone before this life, so let's live this life not wait for a an imaginary afterlife that might never end? :shocked:

A life loved with His love, is life to the full, as Jesus said it was.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I care far more about truth than I ever would about what may feel good but lack sound, testable evidence in the real world. But, if you feel that your faith or some vague personal experience somehow trumps demonstrable evidence then that's your prerogative.

However, part of the trouble with that approach is how at odds you are with the vast array of other religions and supernatural belief systems out there, many of which may appear somewhat odd, being mutually exclusive to your own beliefs. Naturally, your magic is better than their magic which they, of course, all claim about yours. And it doesn't end there, does it? Even within Christianity or Islam or "whatever" there is, without doubt, very little you guys agree on, this very board being a tiny tip of the iceberg.

Therefore I suggest open minded scepticism to be perfectly reasonable and rational a world view. I say this not because I hate God or that I'm addicted to sin, or any other such nonsense, but because during this one "blink of an eye existence" that we can know of for sure, I wish to believe as many true things as I can make possible while at the same time rejecting as many false things as I can and I see no other method for achieving these goals.....

Tis that simple :think:

Ok, if you want to look at evidence; there is countless lives changed by His love. And yet somehow you find a way to rationalize away the truth of what His love does. Imaginations don't change lives. His love does!

 

[alwight]

And perhaps the lie is that there is no love, telling you not seek it.

I saw a wonderful video where an atheist barber was brought in a long haired gent, by a theist. The barber said he has long hair because he doesn't come to me. God is waiting for us all to reach out to Him, He is not far from anyone.The only thing between us and Him is us.

A life loved with His love, is life to the full, as Jesus said it was.

I think that all you do is to fill your mind up with pretty meaningless platitudes and bald assertions, like a kind of drug.
I suggest that if God exists and wants to be found then He should become visible and tangible to those who require rather more substance than platitudes.

 

[Hedshaker]

Ok, if you want to look at evidence; there is countless lives changed by His love. And yet somehow you find a way to rationalize away the truth of what His love does. Imaginations don't change lives. His love does!

And the other mutually exclusive religions say the same about their gods too and you can't all be right. Your trouble is you just don't listen. Just way too indoctrinated

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I think that all you do is to fill your mind up with pretty meaningless platitudes and bald assertions, like a kind of drug.
I suggest that if God exists and wants to be found then He should become visible and tangible to those who require rather more substance than platitudes.

Thank you. You helped to prove my point. Words without substance are useless. But the Holy Spirit's presence makes it all real. And we can go back and forth for a lifetime. You, "That's your experience"; me, "You won't know until you try Him"; You, "No thanks". Don't you see it's just your choice to not seek Him. You can never disprove my experience, and I myself, by my words alone, can't prove His supernatural existence. If you continue to refuse to not taste to and see if He is good you will never know,one way or the other for sure. But don't be deceived it is your will, it's your choice. Again a truthful platitude, "there is nothing between you and Him but you".

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

And the other mutually exclusive religions say the same about their gods too and you can't all be right. Your trouble is you just don't listen. Just way too indoctrinated

We've been through this before, the claims are not all the same and you know it, that is a way to divert from the truth. A delusion you have admitted.

 

[alwight]

Thank you. You helped to prove my point. Words without substance are useless. But the Holy Spirit's presence makes it all real. And we can go back and forth for a lifetime. You, "That's your experience"; me, "You won't know until you try Him"; You, "No thanks". Don't you see it's just your choice to not seek Him. You can never disprove my experience, and I myself, by my words alone, can't prove His supernatural existence. If you continue to refuse to not taste to and see if He is good you will never know,one way or the other for sure. But don't be deceived it is your will, it's your choice. Again a truthful platitude, "there is nothing between you and Him but you".

Without the benefit of a shared experience and evidence then there is no substance, only what you say is going on in your own head. Your assertions of the supposed Holy Spirit are equally empty. A choice can be made between things of actual substance but not from an endless possible array of supernatural beliefs.

 

[Hedshaker]

We've been through this before, the claims are not all the same and you know it, that is a way to divert from the truth. A delusion you have admitted.

I'm sorry but the claims are exactly the same. Anyone who claims their religious beliefs and their God beliefs have helped them through a bad time is saying the same thing, except they believe different gods have helped them. You all can't be right but you all certainly can be wrong. And what about the people who manage to turn them selves around without any gods at all? It's true some people do better with a crutch, even if it's an imaginary one. But you remind me of someone who's so attached to the crutch they still use it after your broken leg is fully better.

You can spout on all you want but I don't buy it. If your God was real you should be able to demonstrate it without the platitudes. If that's all you have please preach it to someone else because I. Do. Not. Believe. A. Word. Of. It. Got it?

 

[6days]

If your God was real you should be able to demonstrate it without the platitudes.

Rom. 1:20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Without the benefit of a shared experience and evidence then there is no substance, only what you say is going on in your own head. Your assertions of the supposed Holy Spirit are equally empty. A choice can be made between things of actual substance but not from an endless possible array of supernatural beliefs.

"Without the benefit of shared experience and evidence"??? That is exactly one my points. That is what we have in many changed by thier shared experience of Jesus, His love, His presence, His Spirit. As you rightly point out shared experience, witnesses testimony is evidence in any court room that attempts to make a judgement.

There are few supernatural beliefs that hold any credence. It would stand to reason the one responsible for pulling the Western world out of Barbarianism, should have quite a bit of credence.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I'm sorry but the claims are exactly the same. Anyone who claims their religious beliefs and their God beliefs have helped them through a bad time is saying the same thing, except they believe different gods have helped them. You all can't be right but you all certainly can be wrong. And what about the people who manage to turn them selves around without any gods at all? It's true some people do better with a crutch, even if it's an imaginary one. But you remind me of someone who's so attached to the crutch they still use it after your broken leg is fully better.

You can spout on all you want but I don't buy it. If your God was real you should be able to demonstrate it without the platitudes. If that's all you have please preach it to someone else because I. Do. Not. Believe. A. Word. Of. It. Got it?

Nor by your statements do you understand the stark difference in Christ than other religions. You lump them all together because of your obvious predjudice just as 6 days pointed out. Naysayers have a belief system. Your God is science. I'll start a thread so you and others can Maybe understand the differences in Christ a little better. One being as you said, "a crutch" a personal love with God that carries us through this dark world that is more like a stretcher. I'm proud to say I need Him.

 

[alwight]

"Without the benefit of shared experience and evidence"??? That is exactly one my points. That is what we have in many changed by thier shared experience of Jesus, His love, His presence, His Spirit. As you rightly point out shared experience, witnesses testimony is evidence in any court room that attempts to make a judgement.

I'm sorry but that isn't true, people may share religious beliefs and some will claim Jesus as their leader and mentor, but to suppose that any are actually sharing a real common experience of Jesus are in all probability only deluding themselves around a common theme. If they think that they are experiencing "His love" etc then each is actually only having a personal experience that they choose to attribute to their particular common religious belief. Some Christians will become very emotional and possessive of their own ideas of Jesus, perhaps seen as an actual personal friend and confidant, but in my opinion this has rather more in common with an invisible and imaginary friend. I accept that such people will often find a kind of joy and comfort in that but it doesn't make it true.

There are few supernatural beliefs that hold any credence. It would stand to reason the one responsible for pulling the Western world out of Barbarianism, should have quite a bit of credence.

I see no reason to suppose that any supernatural beliefs have been founded in any factuality or credence. Religious people typically believe in whatever supernatural beliefs and culture that they happen to have been raised in, regardless of any need for facts and evidence.

 

[PureX]

I don't understand why atheists and theists continue on in this endless debate. Clearly, neither side is going to change their mind, and just as clearly, their definition of "evidence" oppose so thoroughly that neither can accept the other's as valid.

So what is it that you all are hoping to achieve from this debate? Are you trying to convince yourselves by arguing with the other? Are you just wallowing in your own self-righteousness for the ego-boost? I don't understand.

When I see these conversations (as they occur often on TOL) I can't help but see the flaws and commonalities on both sides. Yet the participants never seem to care about these. They only care about how wrong the opposing argument is.

These threads go on forever, so I have to assume that you all are getting something you want from the debate.

But what?

 

[alwight]

These threads go on forever, so I have to assume that you all are getting something you want from the debate.

But what?

You don't have to read any of them. :sherlock:

 

[gcthomas]

I don't understand why atheists and theists continue on in this endless debate. Clearly, neither side is going to change their mind, and just as clearly, their definition of "evidence" oppose so thoroughly that neither can accept the other's as valid.

So what is it that you all are hoping to achieve from this debate? Are you trying to convince yourselves by arguing with the other? Are you just wallowing in your own self-righteousness for the ego-boost? I don't understand.

When I see these conversations (as they occur often on TOL) I can't help but see the flaws and commonalities on both sides. Yet the participants never seem to care about these. They only care about how wrong the opposing argument is.

These threads go on forever, so I have to assume that you all are getting something you want from the debate.

But what?

So that the more gullible lurkers don't all assume that the YEC side has the power of science and empiricism on its side. Natch.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I'm sorry but that isn't true, people may share religious beliefs and some will claim Jesus as their leader and mentor, but to suppose that any are actually sharing a real common experience of Jesus are in all probability only deluding themselves around a common theme. If they think that they are experiencing "His love" etc then each is actually only having a personal experience that they choose to attribute to their particular common religious belief. Some Christians will become very emotional and possessive of their own ideas of Jesus, perhaps seen as an actual personal friend and confidant, but in my opinion this has rather more in common with an invisible and imaginary friend. I accept that such people will often find a kind of joy and comfort in that but it doesn't make it true.

I see no reason to suppose that any supernatural beliefs have been founded in any factuality or credence. Religious people typically believe in whatever supernatural beliefs and culture that they happen to have been raised in, regardless of any need for facts and evidence.

You don't know if shared experiences in Christ actually are transcendental spiritual true experiences or not. You can say they are false, but that does not make them false.

Your point that people usually believe in what ever supernatural belief they were raised in, gives Christ more credence. Why would the Jewish disciples of Christ turn to him, and testify to His death and resurrection into their own death of they really did not see Him raised from the dead? The only logical answer is they witnessed it all.

Why would a pagan Western world turn away from thier pagan false gods?

 

[PureX]

You don't have to read any of them. :sherlock:

That doesn't really answer my question, though, does it.

Do you even know why you continue on in this debate? Have you asked yourself this question?