Atheists believe....?

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Exactly. Even though many have spent a lifetime building ever stronger walls to keep Him out, they are still made in the image of God and can never escape that reality. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place and the only solution available is to deny reality and make themselves as comfortable as possible. Eventually they have no difficulty talking themselves into thinking the grapes are sour and they can stop trying to reach for them.

Whenever a creature denies the existence of God, they belie their frustration that God has organized the universe in such a way that He cannot be known by natural means which is the only means they have at their disposal; and it drives them nuts! In fact, structured unbelief is a defense mechanism to keep their soul locked in the closet where it can't remind them of their folly.

I know these things are true because I have lived both sides. It was not until I was truly prepared to hear, that God allowed me to know what was real and what was not; and he sealed it with undeniable, personal experiences.

We know quite well there is spiritual opposition to Him. Thanks for your testimony!

 

[PureX]

You ignored my point that the disciples, Paul and many, many others have experienced the supernatural presence of God. To say it's no evidence is false.

Evidence of what? I have personally experienced the presence of God. But having done so did not make me magically infallible. I could have been mistaken in my assessment of that experience. And even if my assessment is correct, that doesn't tell me anything about how others would experience God. Or even if they could.

My life has also been saved by what I believe to be God's working through the circumstances of my own failures, and through my eventual willingness to accept His help. And yet I still have to admit that nothing "supernatural" happened. It was just the healing power of love, and of forgiveness, acting on me and in me through the hearts and minds of other people like myself.

The point being that regardless of what I call these events, and believe them to be, I am still human. And therefor I could always be wrong. And so could Paul, and the pope, and you and your friends, and anyone else who professes to know what God is, and what God does. REGARDLESS OF THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. And the fact that you do not recognize this tends to discredit your experiences, and your assessment of those experiences, in the eyes of others.

Does it convince everyone? No. Why? Pride for one.

And here you go, blaming THEM for your shortcomings! That also tends to discredit your experiences, and your assessment of those experiences, in the eyes of others.

People have hard time admitting their helplessness and need. Me included.

Or, they are actually NOT IN NEED of any spiritual healing at the present time. And you simply can't grasp that, because you can't comprehend that your own ideas and experiences are not the paradigm for everyone else's. … What was that about pride?

I know the only way anyone is whole heartedly convinced is by seeking and finding through humilty and faith in Him.

It is not humility that makes you assume that your ideas and experiences of God are the paradigm for everyone else's. And it is not faith to just blindly presume that your experience and assessment of that experience is some universal truth simply because you think it is. That's pretense, not faith. Faith is trusting in what you hope to be true even though you can't actually know that it is.

 

[alwight]

I am very sorry for her suffering. I have had a great deal of anguish myself in this life, as I suspect most have. If she does not have pride or the capacity of pride He is with her, and undoubtedly her pain will turn to joy when He welcomes her into His kingdom.

That may be a satisfactory and comforting thing for you to choose to believe but you don't know any such thing happens.
You were helped in this life apparently, you use it as testimony for God, so why then could that not happen for her and why is her story not even better testimony against your God's existence?

 

[George Affleck]

Any schizophrenic could say the same, and do so in all honesty and sincerity. It's the fact that you never bothered to 'falsify' (proof-test) your assessments of your own experiences that cause other people to doubt and reject your claims. You stumbled blindly into a conceptual paradigm that works for you, and then you proclaimed, blindly, that it will work for everyone. This doesn't inspire confidence in people, regarding your proclamations.

You misunderstand for the following reasons:

1. It is not my aim, nor is it possible for me, to inspire confidence or dispel doubt unto salvation; neither is this God's aim. He declares what is so. It is God's work of grace by the Holy Spirit which makes anew that which is useless.

2. Representing me as "stumbling blindly" and declaring that it is a "fact" that I "never bothered to 'falsify' (proof-test)" requires a great deal more information than you have available.

3. If you think that "...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." or "...whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." do not "work for everyone", you are sadly mistaken. There is no room for conceptual paradigms in Christ's kingdom; they are the fantasies of the lost. What you call a paradigm is revealed truth.

Perhaps that fence you're sitting on is a distraction to your intellect.

 

[PureX]

You misunderstand for the following reasons:

1. It is not my aim, nor is it possible for me, to inspire confidence or dispel doubt unto salvation; neither is this God's aim. He declares what is so. It is God's work of grace by the Holy Spirit which makes anew that which is useless.

Then why are you preaching your "salvation" to others, at all?

2. Representing me as "stumbling blindly" and declaring that it is a "fact" that I "never bothered to 'falsify' (proof-test)" requires a great deal more information than you have available.

If you want to prove me wrong, please show me an attempt at falsifying your own proposition.

3. If you think that "...whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." or "...whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." do not "work for everyone", you are sadly mistaken. There is no room for conceptual paradigms in Christ's kingdom; they are the fantasies of the lost. What you call a paradigm is revealed truth.

You need to spend more time in the dictionary, and less time in the Bible.

Perhaps that fence you're sitting on is a distraction to your intellect.

Sure, it has to be my fault if I don't accept your proposition, because it can't possibly be yours, right?

 

[Ben Masada]

1. Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God. (And generally, they believe that life came from non life)

Sorry Rusha, but only nothing comes out of nothing. I would not say that Atheism is a belief in the "non-existence" of God because. Were not for the existence of God nothing else would exist. If you want me to explain this to you according to Logic and Physics, let me know.

 

[George Affleck]

Then why are you preaching your "salvation" to others, at all?

Because God tells us to; and, its not my salvation. - you don't listen very well.

If you want to prove me wrong, please show me an attempt at falsifying your own proposition.

You don't get to set the rules. Nice try though.

You need to spend more time in the dictionary, and less time in the Bible.

Thanks for the compliment.

Sure, it has to be my fault if I don't accept your proposition, because it can't possibly be yours, right?

If it was my proposition I would be a salesman. "Repent and be baptised" is not sold, it's witnessed by those who have found bread. Perhaps you missed what I quoted from Martin Luther originally: “We are all mere beggars showing other beggars where to find bread.”

Would it be better for me to keep that information from other beggars?

 

[alwight]

1. Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God. (And generally, they believe that life came from non life)

Sorry Rusha, but only nothing comes out of nothing.

If I can butt in here, Rusha didn't say anything about anything coming from nothing and you seem to erroneously presume such a belief is atheistic for some reason, since something appearing miraculously from nothing is hardly atheism.

I would not say that Atheism is a belief in the "non-existence" of God because. Were not for the existence of God nothing else would exist. If you want me to explain this to you according to Logic and Physics, let me know.

So God exists because of the existence of existence? :liberals:
Yes, please do explain further.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Evidence of what? I have personally experienced the presence of God. But having done so did not make me magically infallible. I could have been mistaken in my assessment of that experience. And even if my assessment is correct, that doesn't tell me anything about how others would experience God. Or even if they could.

My life has also been saved by what I believe to be God's working through the circumstances of my own failures, and through my eventual willingness to accept His help. And yet I still have to admit that nothing "supernatural" happened. It was just the healing power of love, and of forgiveness, acting on me and in me through the hearts and minds of other people like myself.

The point being that regardless of what I call these events, and believe them to be, I am still human. And therefor I could always be wrong. And so could Paul, and the pope, and you and your friends, and anyone else who professes to know what God is, and what God does. REGARDLESS OF THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. And the fact that you do not recognize this tends to discredit your experiences, and your assessment of those experiences, in the eyes of others.
And here you go, blaming THEM for your shortcomings! That also tends to discredit your experiences, and your assessment of those experiences, in the eyes of others.
Or, they are actually NOT IN NEED of any spiritual healing at the present time. And you simply can't grasp that, because you can't comprehend that your own ideas and experiences are not the paradigm for everyone else's. … What was that about pride?
It is not humility that makes you assume that your ideas and experiences of God are the paradigm for everyone else's. And it is not faith to just blindly presume that your experience and assessment of that experience is some universal truth simply because you think it is. That's pretense, not faith. Faith is trusting in what you hope to be true even though you can't actually know that it is.

"Faith is trusting in what you hope to be true even though you can't actually know that it is." PyreX

Contrasted with:
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 ESV

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 KJV

Faith, the Greek Pistis translated to faith, defined by Strongs Concordance: "persuasion that is credence; moral conviction(of religous truth or the truthfulness of God)".

Do you see the huge difference? Conviction, trust. What you propose is not faith, it's plainly uncertainty about everything, as if we may all be in a dream and we may wake to some reality. Ironically faith is seeing, trusting, experiencing that there is reality.

Trust your heart, trust Him, don't waver,that is a lie and trap of your enemy.

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful." Hebrews 10:22-23

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

That may be a satisfactory and comforting thing for you to choose to believe but you don't know any such thing happens.
You were helped in this life apparently, you use it as testimony for God, so why then could that not happen for her and why is her story not even better testimony against your God's existence?

I have total conviction that it will and I have His presence to back up my conviction, and His word, and the testimony of many who would rather have been murdered than disavow Him. Your belief is based on yourself.

I understand how pain is used against His reality. I myself suffered as I said, and I know all too well the lies whispered in my ear to keep me from Him. It all comes back to the Cross and His ressurection. If He suffered greatly to prove His love, to prove He is truthful, the lady you mentioned is loved and He does understand and know her pain, and even carry the burden of it now. And if He ascended into the heavens as many men testified to into death, there is a place made for her with no more pain and sorrow. I am thoroughly convinced as Paul said He is not far from any of us. The only thing between us and Him is us.

 

[alwight]

I have total conviction that it will and I have His presence to back up my conviction, and His word, and the testimony of many who would rather have been murdered than disavow Him. Your belief is based on yourself.

You may not be deluded and I may be very wrong but I honestly don't think so and you could well be very deluded indeed.

I understand how pain is used against His reality. I myself suffered as I said, and I know all too well the lies whispered in my ear to keep me from Him. It all comes back to the Cross and His ressurection. If He suffered greatly to prove His love, to prove He is truthful, the lady you mentioned is loved and He does understand and know her pain, and even carry the burden of it now. And if He ascended into the heavens as many men testified to into death, there is a place made for her with no more pain and sorrow. I am thoroughly convinced as Paul said He is not far from any of us. The only thing between us and Him is us.

Hearing voices probably has rather more in common with delusion than rationality while your faith in an ancient scripture and Christian dogma isn't really improving matters from my more sceptical position.:nono:

 

[Hedshaker]

The trouble with this army of peeps who claim they know their Gods are real because of some personal experience or other, and this includes Biblical persons like Paul, is that there are so many mutually exclusive claims out there.... from the huge and various selection of mono theists, poly theists, fairy believers (and yes some do) to alien abductees, ghost stories and just about anything one could think of, and that's not to mention the sea of conspiracy theories. You name it and you can bet your last dollar someone believes it and have real personal experiences to prove it to them selves.

But of course, when it comes right down to it, not a single one has a rice pudding skin of testable evidence that could demonstrate their claims good enough to pass the sceptic test, you just have to believe them because they say so. And they all really, really mean it.

So what's a sceptic to think? They're all so sincere, coc sure and emotionally convinced.

I guess two little words scream out loud and clear.....Occam's Razor

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

You may not be deluded and I may be very wrong but I honestly don't think so and you could well be very deluded indeed.

Hearing voices probably has rather more in common with delusion than rationality while your faith in an ancient scripture and Christian dogma isn't really improving matters from my more sceptical position.:nono:

First of all, there are no solid answers from science from where thoughts originate. Its a guessing game for scientists. October 23 posted a link to a Harvard trained Neuro Surgeon who while in a coma with no brain activity experienced very real heavenly vision/thoughts. It made a believer out of Him. With a framework of Spirituality there is an answer where thoughts originate. Read C.S Lewis's ""Screwtape Letters" and you will see how lies are introduced to keep us from the truth. We all have experienced moments of moral decisions, feeling the weight of the right and wrong choices. The battle of the self vs. selflessness. This happens every day.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The trouble with this army of peeps who claim they know their Gods are real because of some personal experience or other, and this includes Biblical persons like Paul, is that there are so many mutually exclusive claims out there.... from the huge and various selection of mono theists, poly theists, fairy believers (and yes some do) to alien abductees, ghost stories and just about anything one could think of, and that's not to mention the sea of conspiracy theories. You name it and you can bet your last dollar someone believes it and have real personal experiences to prove it to them selves.

But of course, when it comes right down to it, not a single one has a rice pudding skin of testable evidence that could demonstrate their claims good enough to pass the sceptic test, you just have to believe them because they say so. And they all really, really mean it.

So what's a sceptic to think? They're all so sincere, coc sure and emotionally convinced.

I guess two little words scream out loud and clear.....Occam's Razor

From your link, link to the "Priciple of parsimony", "One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic."

Hmmmm... So the mark of those connected to Christ is love. Love of their enemies. Forgiveness of atrocities committed. This is not natural, we all know this. The fewest leaps of logic is there is something to this love professed to be found.

 

[PureX]

From your link, link to the "Priciple of parsimony", "One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic."

Hmmmm... So the mark of those connected to Christ is love. Love of their enemies. Forgiveness of atrocities committed. This is not natural, we all know this. The fewest leaps of logic is there is something to this love professed to be found.

There is almost nothing to "love professed". There is something to love being acted upon, however.

 

[Jonahdog]

So the mark of those connected to Christ is love. Love of their enemies. Forgiveness of atrocities committed. This is not natural, we all know this. The fewest leaps of logic is there is something to this love professed to be found.

Sorta puts many of the TOL posters in the "not connected to Christ" category.

 

[Truster]

Which statement is most true?
1. Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God. (And generally, they believe that life came from non life)

2. Atheists don't have to and usually don't believe when they don't know the fact.*

The term atheist has nothing to do with belief, faith or trust. Atheism is to do with possession. The 'a' in atheist means without.

 

[alwight]

The term atheist has nothing to do with belief, faith or trust. Atheism is to do with possession. The 'a' in atheist means without.

Theist: belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism ).
Atheist: Without belief in gods.

 

[alwight]

First of all, there are no solid answers from science from where thoughts originate.

I think it is rather more than reasonable to conclude that thinking is going on in real time and is a natural function of the brain, which stops when the brain stops.

Its a guessing game for scientists. October 23 posted a link to a Harvard trained Neuro Surgeon who while in a coma with no brain activity experienced very real heavenly vision/thoughts.

Back in November I went through a 10 hour surgical operation which for me took no time at all, no out of body experiences, no dreams, absolutely nothing, until I came round.

 

[flintstoned]

Absolutely a belief in our Creator God. When we look at the world around us, we recognize His handiwork. We understand quite well that no man could have ever created such things as stars, oceans, or mountains. We marvel at the wonder we, ourselves, are.

Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

But, when we reach a certain age, we get too smart for our own britches, and start imagining how else the things around us could have come into being. We even start thinking some big bang occurred or we climbed out of a slimey pond and became birds then apes then man. We became fools while professing ourselves to be wise.

Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

Sounds like the god of deism. I don't think the god of deism really cares whether or not people believe in it.