ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Knight

Swordsman.... I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. This was from my post #119....

If "repent" is an anthropomorphism then could you please explain the anthropomorphism to us?

In other words.... what does "repent" mean if indeed it is an anthropomorphism? What type of behavior or emotion is it describing?

I explained this to you. We talked about it on the phone, remember? You even said you liked my explanation.

Originally posted by Knight
How can you take comfort in thinking that God planned the rape and brutal murder of a 7 year old girl?

How can you have any comfort or trust believing in a God whose prophecies do not come true, who is surprised by His own creation, and who continues to sit idly by, unable to lift a finger, while hundreds of people He supposedly wants to save but cannot, plunge into hell on a daily basis?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Hilston


How can you have any comfort or trust believing in a God whose prophecies do not come true, who is surprised by His own creation, and who continues to sit idly by, unable to lift a finger, while hundreds of people He supposedly wants to save but cannot, plunge into hell on a daily basis?

Conditional prophecies may or may not come true. God delights in people repenting in response to His intent to judge if they do not. Messianic prophecies are in another category and will come true regardless of what man does or does not do. He is omnicompetent.

God is not surprised in the sense that He wrings His hands in panic if we do something He wished we would not do. He is responsive and omnicompetent to handle any contingency. He is grieved at our wickedness, but knew it as a possibility. It did not 'surprise' Him, but it broke His heart when the possibility of evil became an actuality in space-time.

God does not sit idly by while millions plunge into hell. He is actively seeking, drawing, wooing, persuading, putting up roadblocks, etc. to save everyone possible. His provision was efficacious ("It is finished"), but it must be appropriated. There is a cosmic warfare as Satan seeks to kill, rob, and destroy. Jesus and the Spirit come to give abundant and eternal life. Jesus wept that the Jews would not come to Him though He would have gathered them like a hen if they would not have loved darkness more than light. This does not make Jesus a failure, but shows that man is wicked and culpable for choosing self over God.

It is not that He will not save those He could save. Repentant faith is a condition of salvation. His death and resurrection provided the basis/grounds for salvation. We cannot add anything more to it, but we must receive Him (Jn. 1:12). How do you find this more problematic than your view where God supposedly elects some and non-elects others that HE COULD SAVE, BUT IS NOT WILLING TO? God's righteous character is vindicated if men freely reject His universal offer and provision. Man is culpable for evil and going to hell. In your view, God becomes culpable and blameworthy for arbitrarily saving some while damning others who could be saved. Hyper-sovereignty is not compatible with the revealed love of God. God's holiness is not compatible with being responsible for moral evil (vs natural disasters in judgment...save your mistranslated proof texts).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Hilston

I explained this to you. We talked about it on the phone, remember? You even said you liked my explanation.

I didn't know your name was Swordsman???

I actually don't remember that part of the phone call maybe you could refresh my memory?

And even so... I was sorta hoping to have Swordsman answer the question although you can take a stab at if you like.

How can you have any comfort or trust believing in a God whose prophecies do not come true, who is surprised by His own creation, and who continues to sit idly by, unable to lift a finger, while hundreds of people He supposedly wants to save but cannot, plunge into hell on a daily basis?

Dude go easy on that strawman he's falling to pieces.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Going on day #7......

Going on day #7......

Swordsman.... I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. This was from my post #119....

If "repent" is an anthropomorphism then could you please explain the anthropomorphism to us?

In other words.... what does "repent" mean if indeed it is an anthropomorphism? What type of behavior or emotion is it describing?

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Knight
I didn't know your name was Swordsman???

I didn't realize this was a test for Swordsman. I've obviously confused you with someone who really wants to know the answer to the question.

Originally posted by Knight
Dude go easy on that strawman he's falling to pieces.

What part of my statement does not represent your view? Don't you believe God's prophecies do not always come true? Don't you believe that God gets surprised by creation? Don't you believe God wants to save everyone? Don't you believe that He cannot save those who reject Him? Don't you believe that hundreds of people plunge into hell on a daily basis?

 

[Clete]

I'm not Knight but I can't resist!

Originally posted by Hilston
What part of my statement does not represent your view? Don't you believe God's prophecies do not always come true?

Yep, gotta give you this one! Some explanation is warranted but a... been there, done that.

Don't you believe that God gets surprised by [His] creation?

Definitely!

Don't you believe God wants to save everyone?

This is an overstatement I think. As a general statement it is true enough, but God's desire to satisfy the requirements of justice outweighs His desire to save every person from punishment.

Don't you believe that He cannot save those who reject Him?

Cannot? No, that's definitely not what I believe. Will not is much better! God wills to save those who choose to respond to Him in faith and He will not save those who do not.

Don't you believe that hundreds of people plunge into hell on a daily basis?

Definitely! Many die every day in open and willful rejection of God and will pay the price for the evil of which they are guilty.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Hilston

I didn't realize this was a test for Swordsman. I've obviously confused you with someone who really wants to know the answer to the question.

It was Swordsman who appealed to the magical anthropomorphism spot cleaner not you. Not to mention I did address him by name when I stated....

Swordsman.... I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. This was from my post #119....

If "repent" is an anthropomorphism then could you please explain the anthropomorphism to us?

In other words.... what does "repent" mean if indeed it is an anthropomorphism? What type of behavior or emotion is it describing?

Even still.... feel free to answer his question for him if you like but you might want to actually answer it instead of simply claiming we discussed it over the phone (I still don't remember that part of the conversation).

You continue....

What part of my statement does not represent your view? Don't you believe God's prophecies do not always come true? Don't you believe that God gets surprised by creation? Don't you believe God wants to save everyone? Don't you believe that He cannot save those who reject Him? Don't you believe that hundreds of people plunge into hell on a daily basis?

Lets review your statement....

Hiltons statement in blue my response will be in black....

How can you have any comfort or trust believing in a God whose prophecies do not come true,

God's prophecies don't come true??? Strawman run for your life!!!!! Hilston I think its pretty clear that your statement is highly misleading. First off.... most of God's prophecies DO come true! Second.... the only reason that one of God's prophecies might not come true is because God Himself changed the His plan i.e., Jer 18.

who is surprised by His own creation,

Again... only on rare occasions would God be "surprised" by His creation and it isn't me you have a problem with here its the Bible. God says flat out He expected good grapes from Israel and yet Israel produced wild grapes (Isaiah 5).

and who continues to sit idly by, unable to lift a finger, while hundreds of people He supposedly wants to save but cannot, plunge into hell on a daily basis?

Sits idly by???????

Dude where do you get this stuff? I am ashamed of you! I have never made a claim like that nor have I seen any other OV'er make a claim like that! God does not sit idly by!!! God has gone to INCREDIBLE measures for us, God Himself states.....

What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

So again... Hilston until you are ready to face me instead of Mr. Strawman please spare me your unfair and "unchristian-like" fellowship.

Jim, I like you ... you are a great guy! I expect more from you, I expect you to treat me as a friend.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Originally posted by Knight

Do you believe the Bible is the word of God?

How can you take comfort in thinking that God planned the rape and brutal murder of a 7 year old girl? Or of men hijacking airliners and flying them into buildings or men chaining a black man to the back of a pickup truck and dragging him as they drove through the town eventually shredding his body into pieces. Is it comforting to think that God planned those things in every detail?

No I don't.

And No I don't believe God planned those things. I believe in free will and that God knows all the results of all the possible combinations of actions of all the people in existence. And even so, in the end, there is a plan, and that will be that we will all be with Him in an existence where there is no suffering.

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

GPV: there is still a plan, and we don't understand how it all works, even in the Open View.

Thanks for letting me know that. Even so, as I explained in the above post I believe in an Omniscient God. (I may be wrong, but I am not too worried about that. God loves me no matter how right or wrong I am when struggling with the questions of life.)

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

While I understand the sentiment and I don't want to be overly harsh here, I would like to submit for your consideration that it seems that you are placing too much emphasis on your own emotional needs rather than placing the priority on finding out what the truth is and going with it regardless of how you feel about it.

The fact is that IF God does not know everything that is going to happen then you do not need for Him to. In other words, what you need is God, the real God. If that happens to be a God who knows every detail of the future then that's the God you need, if, on the other hand, it turns out that God does not know every detail of the future then that's the God you need. What you feel, while important, isn't the deciding factor. Have the courage to find out what is true and then accept it and believe it. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Look at the substantive evidence and be brave enough to accept what it is telling you.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete, I understand what you are saying and appreciate you putting it in such a kind way. Believe me, I don't think I am creating the God that I need. And I am indeed searching for evidence, though I believe I won't know the full truth about things til I am in Heaven with Him. Probably my little head could not comprehend all those thoughts while alive.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

No I don't.

And No I don't believe God planned those things. I believe in free will and that God knows all the results of all the possible combinations of actions of all the people in existence. And even so, in the end, there is a plan, and that will be that we will all be with Him in an existence where there is no suffering.

I see.

 

[billygoat]

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

No I don't...[believe the Bible??]

And No I don't believe God planned those things. I believe in free will and that God knows all the results of all the possible combinations of actions of all the people in existence. And even so, in the end, there is a plan, and that will be that we will all be with Him in an existence where there is no suffering.

Are you saying that you do not believe the Bible is The Word of GOD? If that is your position, what is the point of discussing Biblical Doctrine? :doh:

As to your free will plus God knows the future idea, that is senseless. If He knows the future, then the future is FIXED and cannot be other than what God knows it is going to be. You are not being logical. :down:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by billygoat

Are you saying that you do not believe the Bible is The Word of GOD? If that is your position, what is the point of discussing Biblical Doctrine? :doh:

Yea... that's what I was thinking.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

Thanks for letting me know that. Even so, as I explained in the above post I believe in an Omniscient God. (I may be wrong, but I am not too worried about that. God loves me no matter how right or wrong I am when struggling with the questions of life.)

No one here denies that God is omniscient. At most, some of us dispute the definition of the word "omniscient". Not all Open Theists agree on this point but I, for one, believe that to know “everything� cannot be rationally made to include the unknowable. Thus God cannot know that which is logically unknowable.

• For actions to be free they must be contingent; that is, there must be an ability to do or to do otherwise.
  If one's "choice" is known with certainty the contingency, the ability to do otherwise does not exist and thus neither does freedom of the will.
  Therefore if freewill exists then the actions of free will agents cannot be known.
  Thus God does not know the actions of free will agents.

Now, that is not to say that those actions cannot be predicted, perhaps even with an extremely high degree of accuracy. After all God is omniscient. He knows every detail that can be known about every person, place or thing. So you see, it isn't that we Open Theists don't believe that God isn't omniscient, it’s just that the conventional (Calvinist) idea of omniscience is an overstatement. It not only doesn't square with the Biblical data but it doesn't square with sound reason either.

Clete, I understand what you are saying and appreciate you putting it in such a kind way. Believe me, I don't think I am creating the God that I need. And I am indeed searching for evidence, though I believe I won't know the full truth about things til I am in Heaven with Him. Probably my little head could not comprehend all those thoughts while alive.

We can know what we can know, the rest we are not responsible for.

The others have pointed out that your rejection of the Bible as God's Word is a problem but I would like to leave that a side for the time being. Instead, I would like to know whether you consider yourself to be a Christian, and if so, why?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter
For me, I need God to be all-powerful and all-knowing. I take comfort in believing that there is a plan and that all will work out for the best, even if I don't understand how.

Now that we know you don't accept the Bible....

I am curious...

How do you know your god has a plan?

 

[GreenPartyVoter]

Knight et al, just to clarify I should have qualified my answer. Yes, I believe it is the Word of God, but no, I do not believe it is infallible. (I mean, which Bible are we talking about anyway? The Catholic one with the Apocrypha? The Protestant one? KJV or the Message?? See more on infallibility here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/inner1.htm )

But yes, I consider myself a Christian. Not a fundamentalist or conservative evangelical per se, but a Christian none-the-less. I believe in Jesus as both a divine and human being and am striving to be like Him in the examples that he set, not only in how I behave towards others but also in the way that He had such an open and loving relationship with His Abba. (Trying being the operative word, there.)

How do I know He has a plan? How does anyone know anything about Him? He has told me so in my heart. Even were I an empath and I could send you that feeling, you might still doubt it and assume I invented it for my own sake. Wish I could "prove" it to you, but I cannot. Hence why we call it faith.

However if only Nicene Creed/"Bible Believing" Christians are allowed in this particular forum, then I apologize for jumping in here. I just happened to see the heading about Open Theology in the latest threads box, and as I had been thinking a bit about it recently (what little I know, anyway) I joined the conversation.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

Knight et al, just to clarify I should have qualified my answer. Yes, I believe it is the Word of God, but no, I do not believe it is infallible. (I mean, which Bible are we talking about anyway? The Catholic one with the Apocrypha? The Protestant one? KJV or the Message?? See more on infallibility here: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2961/inner1.htm )

But yes, I consider myself a Christian. Not a fundamentalist or conservative evangelical per se, but a Christian none-the-less. I believe in Jesus as both a divine and human being and am striving to be like Him in the examples that he set, not only in how I behave towards others but also in the way that He had such an open and loving relationship with His Abba. (Trying being the operative word, there.)

How do I know He has a plan? How does anyone know anything about Him? He has told me so in my heart. Even were I an empath and I could send you that feeling, you might still doubt it and assume I invented it for my own sake. Wish I could "prove" it to you, but I cannot. Hence why we call it faith.

However if only Nicene Creed/"Bible Believing" Christians are allowed in this particular forum, then I apologize for jumping in here. I just happened to see the heading about Open Theology in the latest threads box, and as I had been thinking a bit about it recently (what little I know, anyway) I joined the conversation.

I thought that this might be the case. Very well then, believing in the inerrancy of the Bible makes it easier to have a systematic theology and gives you a common ground upon which to build a discussion on a board of this nature but it is by no mean required for salvation. It sure does make it easy to have an emotionally based theology though. And it is interesting that I responded to what I intuitively picked up as just that before your having said anything about not beleiving in the inerrancy of the Bible.
At any rate, I'm curious to know how you would respond to what I've said about the omniscience of God. Do you believe that God knows the unknowable?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Is it really cogent for God to know as a certainty every play of every sporting event or chess game in the world before they are played? There are trillions of possible combinations. Clearly we have the freedom to pass, run, get injured, move the pawn instead of the bishop, hit a backhand instead of a lob, trip in the Olympics instead of winning as expected, etc. Future free will contingencies are known as a possibility until they become an actuality. The future is not there to 'see' even for an omniscient being. It is not a deficiency for Him to not know a nothing. This is an absurdity or logical contradiction (cf. omnipotence is not limited by the inability to do the absurd....create a rock too heavy to lift, etc.).

Omniscience- God knows all that is knowable. He correctly knows possibilities and actualities as they really are. He knows the past and present perfectly. Some of the future is genuinely open and unknowable. This is the type of creation He chose to make. That which is knowable, He is able to bring to pass by His omnicompetence. He does not predestine or control everything (the only way to support exhaustive foreknowledge according to a Calvinist...simple Arminian foreknowledge is impossible to explain. The future is not a place or thing to be seen or known. Time is unidirectional, not timelessness).

 

[natewood3]

GIT,

Would like to see your response to post #132...no hurry though.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by natewood3

GIT,

Would like to see your response to post #132...no hurry though.

i started it up last night but didn't have time to finish it (lots of school work lately). hopefully it will be done tonight.