I was gonna jump on this one Sozo but you answered it almost word for word as I was ready to.
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ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
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Sozo
New member
Thank you for the note of encouragement!
I suspect that we will find it a constant battle to convince these misguided souls that they are indisputably incorrect in their view of Ephesians 1:4. It is simply the result of stubborn pride, on their part, to stand firm in their bizarre interpretation.
Rolf Ernst
New member
Big Finn--Bravo! Who could disagree with post #240??
Z Man
New member
There is no such thing as "innocent people". All have sinned and fall short.
The Scriptures I provided proved that God gives diseases to people. You said God doesn't do those things, and the woman was wrong for claiming God gave her cancer - that diseases are created out of "thin air" and just happen. I gave Scripture evidence that proves otherwise. You have yet to give Scripture proof that says "God does not grant people diseases". Frankly, if there were verses that said that, then the Bible would contridict itself.
Le 26:16
I also will do this to you: I [the Lord] will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
2 Chronicles 21:14-15, 18
...behold, the Lord will strike your people with a serious affliction--your children, your wives, and all your possessions; and you will become very sick with a disease of your intestines, until your intestines come out by reason of the sickness, day by day. ... After all this the Lord struck him in his intestines with an incurable disease.
De 7:15
And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and will afflict you with none of the terrible diseases of Egypt which you have known, but will lay them on all those who hate you.
De 28:61
Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.
John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Then I must be the only one who is knowledgable of Scripture. And I know I'm not. So, do not assume that everyone is as "Scripturally challenged" as you are...
The Bible clearly tells us that God "gives" diseases to people. It doesn't just "happen", or come out of no where.
So Scripture is irrational? You are theologically depraved...
You have yet to directly respond to the Scriptures that tell us God gives people diseases. You said they come from no where, but the Bible tells us that God is the one who gives people diseases.
Of course He doesn't; there are no such thing as innocent people!
Job was a righteous man before God, yet God tormented him. Christ was perfect, and God willed His death. God had women and children killed by the masses in the nations that opposed Israel.
Matthew 5:45
[God] makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
I wasn't trying to prove that God randomly torments innocent people. I was simply giving proof that God does give people diseases, as you have vehemently opposed! You do not oppose me or my beliefs my friend, but rather, you directly oppose Scriptures!
:nono:
I answered you in post #183.
Through Satan, God put Job through a life of hard times, taking away everything that he had, to show Job one thing; that He is sovereign. Job saw a glimpse of God's glory (Job 42), and was speechless. Because of Job's sufferings, he was shown the glory of God. That's how God does it; He uses evil and suffering and diseases and what have you to show the world that He is a God of Glory and Holiness. Christ is another perfect example of this.
Knight,
You have yet to prove to us Scripturally that the woman was wrong for claiming that God gave her cancer. You said that diseases come from no where and that they aren't "given". Where does Scripture ever say that?
Your feelings and opinions about who God is will not fly in the search for TRUTH. We must take the TRUTH of Scripture for what it reveals to us. And, as I have pointed out and posted, diseases are truly given, and they are given by God. He doesn't just "punish" the "evil ones"; in fact, God's will is that the "good people" should suffer more than the "evil ones".
1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
2 Timothy 3:12
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
You seem hesitant or afraid to claim that God "suffers" those who are "good". The Bible tells us the exact opposite. Becoming a Christian doesn't mean that life suddenly becomes some sort of cake walk and that God makes sure you have a happy, peaceful life. God desires that we make sacrifices daily. To be persecuted and mocked and go through countless sufferings for Him is pleasing to Him. Who are you to say that the woman who claims God gave her cancer is stupid? She is far more intelligent than you are, and she rightly knows the Scriptures, unlike you. Who knows what God will do with her life and through her afflictions with the disease of cancer....
John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Z Man
New member
Big Finn,
Please check out this post. Until you do so, you will never understand my position on God's love for Himself, and will continue to mis-represent my views on the matter. And I will not reply to your ignorant posts. Unless you have something to object against in the post above that I have provided a link to, I do not wish to debate with you and would like it if you would not mis-represent my beliefs in ignorance. Thank you.
Please check out this post. Until you do so, you will never understand my position on God's love for Himself, and will continue to mis-represent my views on the matter. And I will not reply to your ignorant posts. Unless you have something to object against in the post above that I have provided a link to, I do not wish to debate with you and would like it if you would not mis-represent my beliefs in ignorance. Thank you.
I'm glad you agree with it Rolf. However I do believe Calvinism disagrees with it at a very basic level. I'll tell you why.
Calvinism says God ordained sin, and that sin exists to the glory of God. It also says that God has created people to serve no other purpose than for destruction, because He did not create them to be saved--He chose to them for desruction from the foundation of the world.
This fits the the second definition I gave for defining a selfish action--Any action that harms others so that the person doing it might look good on the surface. By holding the position that Calvinism does it in effect says that God is sinful.
And speaking to the post that started this thread...
As you remember you agreed that I was scripturally correct in saying that the character of Christ and the character of God are express images of each other--that basically their characters are one. If God actually gave a person cancer this would be in conflict with character of Christ for I do not believe even a Calvinist would agree that giving a person cancer is something we would have seen Christ do while He was here on earth. He very consistently acted in a manner which is at the opposite end of the spectrum of behavior.
An action like giving a person cancer would be at complete odds with the character Christ exhibited while here on earth. Thus it is completely out of character for God. It would violate His very character.
If anyone "misrepresented" your position it was you. All I did was: 1. Take you at your word. 2. Repeat your words just as you said them.
If you don't want people to believe what you write, then put a disclaimer at the head of your posts saying that you don't really believe what you are putting in your posts. Don't expect me to go read someplace else where you disagreed with what you posted here. If you can't be consistent in your declaration of your beliefs don't blame others for your mistakes.
As to what I said to Rolf, all I did was basically quote you so he would know just what the situation was, for he thought I had said what you did. I was correcting his mistaken assumption that I was the one that had said what you said. That is no misrepresentation of you in the slightest. It is simply a recital of the facts.
Z Man
New member
Poly,
Job was a righteous man; God had women and children killed in all the nations that opposed Israel; Christ was sinless; and all those who follow Christ are persecuted and must suffer (it's better to suffer for good than for evil).
Besides that, the point was Knight specifically stated that God does not give people diseases - they just come out of thin air. I proved him wrong. Scripture states otherwise.
Hilston-
God is never responsible for anything?! Ever?! :darwinsm:
I can just imagine Calvin rolling over in his grave.
I do believe there are times that God ordains sinful things. Seeing as how He ordained what happened to His Son. But that He ordains all sin? No! Nor doesn He ordain evil! He abhors it! How in the world would you come up with the idea that He ordains something He abhors?!
God is never responsible for anything?! Ever?! :darwinsm:
I can just imagine Calvin rolling over in his grave.
I do believe there are times that God ordains sinful things. Seeing as how He ordained what happened to His Son. But that He ordains all sin? No! Nor doesn He ordain evil! He abhors it! How in the world would you come up with the idea that He ordains something He abhors?!
Hilston, you also have a question wherein you ask OV'ers if they have chosen something they didn't mean to choose.
Obviously, the point of choice is never something that isn't chosen, simply because what is chosen can be defined as that which is chosen.
However, if we ask God His view on the matter, He is very clear that Humans are not perfectly predictable in the values they place on certain things that will affect a choice. In the garden, He said, "Maybe Adam and Eve will try to get back in." When He told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac a point came where He said, "Now I know."
So, although we always make a choice based on the value of the things at affect that choice, it is clear that God is not 100% sure about the weight of all the values of all the men for all eternity.
Obviously, the point of choice is never something that isn't chosen, simply because what is chosen can be defined as that which is chosen.
However, if we ask God His view on the matter, He is very clear that Humans are not perfectly predictable in the values they place on certain things that will affect a choice. In the garden, He said, "Maybe Adam and Eve will try to get back in." When He told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac a point came where He said, "Now I know."
So, although we always make a choice based on the value of the things at affect that choice, it is clear that God is not 100% sure about the weight of all the values of all the men for all eternity.
You only showed that God punishes the wicked. Nobody disagrees with that.
That would only be stating the obvious.
You have not shown however.... that God randomly torments innocent people which is the point at hand.
That God OK'ed Satan's afflictions of Job doesn't mean that God was punishing Job. God's purpose, in light of the entire story, seems to have a much different motive than punishing Job for anything. The fact that God supported Job against Job's "friends" at the end of the story, and then gave Job more than he had to begin with does not jibe with the scenario of God punishing Job. I mean, God punishes Job for ??? and then turns around and calls Job a good man and gives him much more than the devil took away from him in the first place? This makes no sense whatsoever.
Suffering may very well be a part of punishment, and usually is, but not all suffering is punishment. To give an off-the-wall example: I get really obnoxious really anger someone. In their anger they slam my head into a wall. I suffer pain as a punishment for my obnoxious behavior.
I am walking along and stumble and slam my head into a wall. I still suffer the same kind of pain, but it is not punishment.
God_Is_Truth
New member
there are no innocent people Knight. all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
TURBO! - You said
Knight - Great post and topic. I have a cousin who's child/baby is going through a medical travesty. They removed all but 9" of small intestines because evidently it slowly died due to an abnormality that killed most of it. So now, unless she gets a "very" difficult transplant, they say she is simply not going to survive. After they have already drained the family of time and emotions, they are ready to just let her die, and then just console themselves that after all, it is the will of God. So because they believe that no matter what, God is in control, it's all a part of God's plan, they would be the last people to question or fight against what the medical people want to do to their baby, even though they may (or may not) be to some degree at fault for her current condition because of how they treated her. People's lives are ruined because of false doctrine.
How true. If God's plan and will is always done, then it is by His will that sin happens, yet sin is supposed to be that which goes against God's will. They are so contradictory.
Knight - Great post and topic. I have a cousin who's child/baby is going through a medical travesty. They removed all but 9" of small intestines because evidently it slowly died due to an abnormality that killed most of it. So now, unless she gets a "very" difficult transplant, they say she is simply not going to survive. After they have already drained the family of time and emotions, they are ready to just let her die, and then just console themselves that after all, it is the will of God. So because they believe that no matter what, God is in control, it's all a part of God's plan, they would be the last people to question or fight against what the medical people want to do to their baby, even though they may (or may not) be to some degree at fault for her current condition because of how they treated her. People's lives are ruined because of false doctrine.
MST3K
New member
Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Knight,
I agree with you about Calvinism. I cannot tell you how many times I have lost it over the terrible things people attribute to God.
My husband and I are friends with a Christian couple. The woman of this couple ended up having an affair and their marriage almost ended. She ended the affair and went back to her husband and they are now trying to repair the devastation of her horrible choice to sin.
This couple happens to be Calvinist. When my husband asked them if this affair was God's will, they said, "Yes. It was." Can you believe that? According to Calvinism, it was God's choice for her to commit adultery. She has no responsibility for her sin because it was all God's will in the first place.
So let's think this through with some logic. God gives us a command: Thou shalt not commit adultery. Why does He give us such a command? Because sin separates us from God and sin hurts people. God tells us not to sin so we won't be separated from Him. Simple. However, Calvinism says, God says DO NOT DO THIS, and then creates a scenario for someone to commit the very thing He said DO NOT DO. God did this so the person who committed adultery and was separated from God would come back to Him (also planned by Him) and would be closer to God because of the sin in the first place. It was all part of His plan.
WHAAAAAAAAAAA?!
I will never understand Calvinism. It makes me sick! *YUCK!*
Re: AHHHHH calvinism makes me furious!!!
Knight,
I agree with you about Calvinism. I cannot tell you how many times I have lost it over the terrible things people attribute to God.
My husband and I are friends with a Christian couple. The woman of this couple ended up having an affair and their marriage almost ended. She ended the affair and went back to her husband and they are now trying to repair the devastation of her horrible choice to sin.
This couple happens to be Calvinist. When my husband asked them if this affair was God's will, they said, "Yes. It was." Can you believe that? According to Calvinism, it was God's choice for her to commit adultery. She has no responsibility for her sin because it was all God's will in the first place.
So let's think this through with some logic. God gives us a command: Thou shalt not commit adultery. Why does He give us such a command? Because sin separates us from God and sin hurts people. God tells us not to sin so we won't be separated from Him. Simple. However, Calvinism says, God says DO NOT DO THIS, and then creates a scenario for someone to commit the very thing He said DO NOT DO. God did this so the person who committed adultery and was separated from God would come back to Him (also planned by Him) and would be closer to God because of the sin in the first place. It was all part of His plan.
WHAAAAAAAAAAA?!
I will never understand Calvinism. It makes me sick! *YUCK!*
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
GIT - I say you are partly right and mostly wrong. God establishes like hundreds (thousands?) of times about the innocence of people. That is not the same thing as needing a savior, yes all have sinned and need to get saved, but the shedding of "innocent" blood is a teaching that is just as real. Murder is wrong because we are actually innocent from such treatment. We have a God given right to life based on the fact that we have not committed a capitol offense. Therefore man should not shed innocent blood, and if you do, you should be put to death, thus murder is a capitol offense and serves wonderfully to demonstrate innocence. We have a God given right to life because we are innocent until we commit a capitol offense, then we are no longer innocent and should be put to death.
God never holds anyone guilty until they are no longer innocent. Jesus said, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Paul said that he was graced out (forgiven) because although he thought he was right, he persecuted God and His people ignorantly! God says that unborn (yet existing, growing) babies have not done good nor evil, i.e. they are morally innocent. Our right to life is based on moral innocence.
God never holds anyone guilty until they are no longer innocent. Jesus said, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. Paul said that he was graced out (forgiven) because although he thought he was right, he persecuted God and His people ignorantly! God says that unborn (yet existing, growing) babies have not done good nor evil, i.e. they are morally innocent. Our right to life is based on moral innocence.
1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
MST3K - Is there such a thing as mystery science theater 3K? I used to watch MST2K years ago, it was hilarious, but I haven't watched TV in years.
I think you understand very well what Calvinism teaches, what you do not, or can not understand is an actual contradiction in terms. You can understand each side separately, but, what is impossible to do is to make sense out of two contradictory propositions. It's like saying that
"A"
and
"non-A"
are both true at the same time and in the same relationship.
It violates all sense and cannot be understood as true, yet people promote a contradiction in terms as being at the heart of their faith in God. I can understand how that is so terribly wrong, yet I can never accept so much contradiction, in fact, no one can make sense out of an actual contradiction, and so ultimately when it comes to meaningful truth on this matter, their faith is purposefully ignorant, it is impossible to make sense out of it. Great post!
I think you understand very well what Calvinism teaches, what you do not, or can not understand is an actual contradiction in terms. You can understand each side separately, but, what is impossible to do is to make sense out of two contradictory propositions. It's like saying that
"A"
and
"non-A"
are both true at the same time and in the same relationship.
It violates all sense and cannot be understood as true, yet people promote a contradiction in terms as being at the heart of their faith in God. I can understand how that is so terribly wrong, yet I can never accept so much contradiction, in fact, no one can make sense out of an actual contradiction, and so ultimately when it comes to meaningful truth on this matter, their faith is purposefully ignorant, it is impossible to make sense out of it. Great post!