ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Rolf Ernst]

Strange! So many people who do not know Reformed doctrine are in a great rush to pontificate on what Calvinists believe.

The reason you never see them quoting Calvinistic theologians, or explaining what Calvinists believe by accurately detailing what Calvinists believe concerning any text of scripture is that they have never studied the issue well enough to know.

It is just so much easier for them to misrepresent Reformed doctrine and set up strawmen built by their imaginations than it is for them to understand and refute Reformed doctrine.

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

I speak to what I see of Calvinism on the forums. If you do not think that these men and women represent what Calvinism is, then why do you not take exception with them? Are they not the ones who are truly misrepresenting it?

However, you do nothing to combat what they put forth, you sit in silence.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Big Finn--In the 200th post on this thread, you equate self-exaltation with sin. That is certainly true concerning creatures, because ALL glory BELONGS to God. The earth is full not of the creature's glory, but of God's glory.

Anything in the creature which is considered glorious is from God. He looked upon His creation--"And God saw everything that He had made and, behold, it was very good."

Therefore, any self-exaltation by His creatures is an attempt to rob God of the glory which rightfully belongs to Him as having created it so.

I don't know where you get the idea of self-exaltation on God's part. He does not exalt Himself for He is from everlasting to everlasting infinitely glorious. If He could at any point exalt Himself, it would be a contradiction of His immutability. If He could exalt Himself to any degree, it would be to a glory which He did not have before.

Some Calvinist may have mistakenly used that term, but it is certainly not scriptural, nor is it true to Calvinistic theology.

God's first purpose to get glory to Himself is not self-exaltation, but a determination to make His name known upon the earth--to manifest that glory which is rightfully His, and the highest end of man is to realize God's glory and to fully enjoy Him in that glory. So no one can charge God with being either self-centered, or with attempting to exalt Himself.

You say that the selflessness of Christ shows a contradictory nature between Him and the Father--concerning that, you must realize the Jesus came as a servant to fulfill the mission given Him by the Father.
He was both God and man: two natures in one person, His humanity never becoming partially God, nor His Deity (in Him dwelt ALL THE FULLNESS of the Godhead) in anyway partially human. His purpose on earth was to manifest the glory of God, and in all His ways He did that so perfectly that He could say, "He that has seen me has seen the Father"; that is, as I am, so the Father is. He is just like me. If you want to know what the Father is like, just look at me. The writer of Hebrews said that Christ is the Father's express image.

As Jesus prepared to return to thee Father, He said, "glorify me with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So there is no way in which the Son and Father are less than One.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: In all this ...

Re: In all this ...

Originally posted by Hilston

What kind of sick and perverted mind blames God for what Satan did?

Well.... I guess Z Man does.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak

Poly's a puppet so don't mind her.

See ya dude! :wave2:

You made an agreement (after your last banishment) you would NOT act this way on the board.

You have broken that agreement.

Knight deal with the Scripture that Zman pointed out in regards to God using diseases for His divine purposes...

I have responded to it specifically.

You should pay better attention.

Oh well... I am sure you will find another web forum to annoy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man

Darn it; I've done it again. Everytime I pull out the "Word", the OV'ers scatter...

Oh please.

I think everyone is still in shock that you think God was instructing Satan on just how to to torment Job.

Oh... and... many of us are still floored by....

"What's wrong with giving a woman cancer?" - Z Man

You are so far off in left field it's more fun to just watch you cram your own feet in your mouth.

 

[Big Finn]

I don't know where you get the idea of self-exaltation on God's part.

Rolf, you haven't been reading very closely have you? Zman first said God is infatuated with Himself, then He said God is in the business of exalting Himself. boogerhead chimed in in support of zman. Those are your Calvinist friends putting forth that idea not me.

If you don't agree with the idea, and it is against Calvinist theology then show them, not me. They are the Calvinist's supporting the idea, although the idea seems to run all through Calvinism from what I've seen on this forum. You're the first Calvinist to deny it.

 

[Big Finn]

You say that the selflessness of Christ shows a contradictory nature between Him and the Father--concerning that, you must realize the Jesus came as a servant to fulfill the mission given Him by the Father.
He was both God and man: two natures in one person, His humanity never becoming partially God, nor His Deity (in Him dwelt ALL THE FULLNESS of the Godhead) in anyway partially human. His purpose on earth was to manifest the glory of God, and in all His ways He did that so perfectly that He could say, "He that has seen me has seen the Father"; that is, as I am, so the Father is. He is just like me. If you want to know what the Father is like, just look at me. The writer of Hebrews said that Christ is the Father's express image.

Rolf,

I agree completely with the part I have bolded. However, you are saying that selflessness is the express image of self-exaltation. The two terms are mutually exclusive and you know it. Selflessness cannot model self-exaltation.

And, yes, Jesus came to be a servant. He came to show us God!!! Do you realize what you are saying and what you are arguing against? Jesus came to show us God. He came as a servant. He lived and died selflessly. What does this tell you??? That God is not what Jesus modeled for us??? I know you are smarter than to draw that conclusion from this.

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

To take a couple of words from your post.

Jesus is the express image of God. Jesus is selfless. God is therefore selfless. Jesus came as a servant to man and God. God is a servant to His creation. Jesus was called, and is, our Master. God is our Master. Both images are true. God is a selfless Master. That is why the world does not understand Him.

Did Jesus not tell us that who ever wanted to be greatest must be the servant of all? These lessons are all through the entire life of Jesus. He is showing us God. God is our Master and the servant of all.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

See ya dude! :wave2:

You made an agreement (after your last banishment) you would NOT act this way on the board.

You have broken that agreement.

Knight, being a little ban-happy today? No reason to ban dear Freak.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by NoHell

Knight, being a little ban-happy today? No reason to ban dear Freak.

Actually there is.

After Freak's last banning Freak agreed he would try to be less divisive and do more than simply pop into threads just to make a snide comment about me, TOL, TOL moderators or my Pastor.

Sadly for Freak he couldn't keep his word.

Freak has reduced himself to nothing more than a forum pest and rarely if ever adds to the debate with anything constructive one way or the other.

I have done everything I can to keep Freak from being permanently banned but enough is enough as it seems Freak does not learn.

Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition.

The difference here is that Freak has had about 23 admonitions.

Oh and trust me..... It wasn't just this thread that Freak was acting his immature self. This thread was simply the last straw.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Originally posted by Freak
Knight deal with the Scripture that Zman pointed out in regards to God using diseases for His divine purposes...

I have responded to it specifically.

Where?!

Oh please.

I think everyone is still in shock that you think God was instructing Satan on just how to to torment Job.

Oh... and... many of us are still floored by....

"What's wrong with giving a woman cancer?" - Z Man

You are so far off in left field it's more fun to just watch you cram your own feet in your mouth.

Knight,

You are avoiding the obvious. You started this thread stating how you think it is disgusting that some woman gave God the credit for her cancer. I've shown you through Scripture that her claims are accurate and Biblical. Who else could of given her cancer? Your answer was no one, which makes no sense. The answer is God, yet you are so trying to avoid coming to that conclusion. You seem afraid. Instead of taking the context of my posts head on, you dance around them, mis-quoting me and emphasizing statements I made that of course make me look horrible when ripped out of context the way you have done them.

Bottom line, I gave Scriptural evidence that God uses sickeness, diseases, calamity, trials, afflictions, and tribulations for a greater cause; mainly to display His glory. You have yet to make a valid response to those Scriptures. Instead of running around claiming that I believe in an evil, sick and twisted God, why don't you be a man for once and have a decent debate with me. Take to heart the Scriptures I have presented. Do not be afraid of them, but rather embrace them, and come to know God as He was meant to be known; in complete and absolute Sovereignty, enamored with uttermost Glory, who has created the light and the dark, peace and evil, all to show the world that He is a God of glory who will reign supreme forever more.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Z Man

Follow Scripture; not the teachings of men (Enyart, Knight)...

Don't even go there Zman. I'm getting really sick to death of hearing people around here making these kind of stupid statements. If you yourself have ever once read a book or sat under somebody's teaching of scripture and gained something from it then you are a hypocrite for making this statement. It's rather shallow, and weak thing to say.

I can't stand things being contributed to the Living God that I serve. I take it very personally when somebody says things about Him that are not true. When I hear somebody else say that they want to defend His name when it comes to setting the record straight on who He really is, it encourages me tremendously. This is why I gave a thumbs up to such a great statement, NOT because I follow Knight instead of God.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Big Finn--in #208 you say that I say that selflessness is self exaltation. I never said such a thing, nor did I think it. Those are words you are trying to assign to me.

One thing you must always keep in mind concerning Christ--He is both God and man: When you read His statement that "the Father is greater than I," He is speaking in regard to His humanity. In other places, He speaks in regard to His deity and the Jews respond, "He makes Himself equal with God." Both are true.

Speaking of human traits and trying to ascribe them to God in some way or trying to compare God with the creature in any way is utterly futile and dishonors Him. It is equal to taking God's name in vain.
Remember where He said, "My ways are not your ways, nor my thoughts as your thoughts; for as the heavens are high above the earth, so are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts."

In all His attributes He is infinitely perfect. Therefore a human being trying to weigh, evaluate, or make a judgement concerning those attributes is surely the greatest possible arrogance of which a man can be guilty.

"WHO BY SEARCHING CAN FIND OUT GOD ?" When men presume to weigh or evaluate the merit of His many attributes, that is what they are presumptuously attempting to do. Surely there is no greater arrogance.

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

Interesting way of saying a lot of nothing. You parade quite carefully down both sides of the fence at once. God isn't selfless like Christ. God isn't self-exalting. Dont try to measure God by human standards.

Funny how God says just the opposite. He says, Taste and see that the Lord is good. He says, Get to know me. Try me and see if I'm not faithful to my promises. Learn by experience that I am trustworthy and of good character.

God appeals to our sense of judgment of fairness, honesty, caring, and love, all throughout the Bible. Yet you say, ah, don't pay any attention to those things. You can't hold God to any of these human standards of what is right and wrong. Sorry, but God disagrees with you.

Funny also how Jesus paints a picture of His Father in the parable of the Prodigal son. He paints a picture of God loving, caring for, and yearning for his lost son. He paints the picture of the Father running to meet his son because His heart was full of love. Here is a picture of the love of God drawn in human terms and you tell me that it isn't applicable to understanding God because God can't be held to human standards. Wow, what a waste of words. I guess Jesus was talking to hear himself talk.

It's also funny how the Bible pictures God in the ultimate role of master and servant in human terms--Father. A father is the master of his house, yet the servant of all his domain. You tell me that this isn't applicable to God, that I can't judge Him by human standards. Well, I guess you must then throw out huge portions of the scriptures. Jesus telling us to to call God our father. Jesus calling him Daddy. All these pictures are wasted because we just can't really apply them to God. We just can't understand Him in human terms. I would consider the Bible to be a huge waste in terms of understanding God if I were to take your advice.

Sorry, Rolf, zman, and boogerhead, but your religion is blasphemous. It paints God in exactly the opposite terms that the Bible, and Jesus through His life, portray Him. Calvinism paints God with the attributes of His adversary and ours, the devil.

In your religion fathers give their children cancer. What a religion.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Z Man
Knight,

You are avoiding the obvious. You started this thread stating how you think it is disgusting that some woman gave God the credit for her cancer. I've shown you through Scripture that her claims are accurate and Biblical.

No.. no you haven't. All you have shown is that God punishes the wicked and you will get no disagreement from me on that one.

Nowhere in scripture do you find God randomly tormenting innocent people.

Who else could of given her cancer?

How many times do you need to be told? Cancer isn't "given". Nor is Alzheimer's, or aneurisms or a multitude of other ailments. Apparently you are the only one on this thread that thinks cancer is "given".

Your answer was no one, which makes no sense. The answer is God, yet you are so trying to avoid coming to that conclusion.

I always avoid irrational conclusions.

You seem afraid. Instead of taking the context of my posts head on, you dance around them, mis-quoting me and emphasizing statements I made that of course make me look horrible when ripped out of context the way you have done them.

Bottom line, I gave Scriptural evidence that God uses sickeness, diseases, calamity, trials, afflictions, and tribulations for a greater cause; mainly to display His glory. You have yet to make a valid response to those Scriptures.

You are wrong! I have responded to your assertions as I have yet again in this post!

God doesn't randomly torment innocent people. The only biblical examples you have supplied show God punishing wicked people. Therefore you have given ZERO biblical support that God randomly torments innocent people.

Now... maybe you missed it but I asked you a question and you avoided it....

You stated that God... "put Job through a life of hell," to which I asked....

Tell me Z Man I am curious... what specifically do you think GOD did to Job?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Z ManGod initiated the whole thing. He beckoned Satan to afflict Job, even though Job was a rightous man.

No He didn't! Satan came to God. The scripture tells us that.

Job 1:8-12
"Then the Lord asked Satan, 'Have you moticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth-a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil. Satan replied to the Lord, 'Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason! You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is! But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!' 'All right, you may test him,' the Lord said to Satan. 'Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically.' So Satan left the Lord's presence."
-NLT

It was Satan's idea that Job would curse God, if He lost everything. So God, knowing how faithful Job was, let Satan try his hardest. And Satan made a fool of himself, as he always does.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Big Finn
Sorry, Rolf, zman, and boogerhead, but your religion is blasphemous. It paints God in exactly the opposite terms that the Bible, and Jesus through His life, portray Him. Calvinism paints God with the attributes of His adversary and ours, the devil.

In your religion fathers give their children cancer. What a religion.

Tragic.

P.S. Great post! :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by lighthouse
And Satan made a fool of himself, as he always does.

Kinda makes you wonder what in the world they (Z Man and the like) think the lesson of the story of Job is eh? :nono:

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

I just realized that I didn't answer something from your post.

You said:

Big Finn--in #208 you say that I say that selflessness is self exaltation. I never said such a thing, nor did I think it. Those are words you are trying to assign to me.

Hmmm.... Well, you said the following in a previous post.

You say that the selflessness of Christ shows a contradictory nature between Him and the Father--concerning that, you must realize the Jesus came as a servant to fulfill the mission given Him by the Father.

The import of this statement is quite clear. You acknowledge a couple of things:

1. God's character is in conflict with Christ's character from your point of view.

2. Christ's character while here on earth was the epitome of selflessness.

Thus, if Christ's character is selflessness and God's character is contradictory to this principle, then God's character can only be based in self-exaltation. I have not said anything about your position other than what you yourself have deduced in your own posts.

The statement you made on concerning the character of Christ is really something. It implies that Christ's character was only what it was here on earth because of the role He had to play. In other words Christ's life was one of hypocrisy because He was only role playing. His selflessness wasn't there before He became a man. These are really interesting things that you believe, Rolf.

One request of you too. I would like you to show Biblical support for your statements about not applying the human concepts of love, honor, trust, strength and goodness of character, etc... to our knowledge of God and the picture that the Bible paints of God as our Father. Show explicit support for this reasoning. I will be really interested in seeing it as I don't believe it exists. In fact that reasoning violates everything we know about why the Bible exists, as it exists to give us a mental picture of God.