ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Hilston]

Combined response to Lighthouse, Big Finn, Poly and Knight

Combined response to Lighthouse, Big Finn, Poly and Knight

This is a combined response to Lighthouse, Big Finn, Poly and Knight

To Lighthouse

Lighthouse writes: ... So He gave Job what Job had, and by allowing it to be taken away, He took it away. But not directly, as Calvinists would like us to believe.

That's not what Calvinists believe. Debating straw men is much easier, isn't it?

Lighthouse writes: ... The scripture plainly tells us that God allwed Satan to destroy Job's life.

God taunted Satan, challenged him. Satan responded with complaints about the hedge God had placed around Job, so God gave Satan the go-ahead to afflict Job. It wasn't merely "allowed." It was instigated by God.

Lighthouse writes: But Job is not the point here, really. This is all about the woman who said God gave her cancer. ...

Not so. This is about Calvinists being misrepresented and the OV fallacy of attacking straw men of their own concoction.

Lighthouse writes: There is no reason for her to believe that God gave her cancer.

I completely agree. But did decree that she would acquire it "through the way her body processed something that entered her body."

Lighthouse writes: God can be considered to be responsible, because he created the body to work in such a way, but He is not directly responsible. It is not His fault if we don't take care of our bodies.

Lighthouse, do you know what "responsible" means? God is not responsible for anything, ever. Do you get that?

To Big Finn
Someone wrote: "He's in the business of self-exalting Himself, not man."

Big Finn replies: I know you think that this is somehow better than being self-infatuated, but it isn't. This is what an self-infatuated person does. They exalt themselves above others.

The reason self-exaltation amongst men is self-infatuation is that it is based on a lie. God exalts Himself truthfully, duly, and righteously.

Big Finn writes: Is not self-exaltion the very business Lucifer was in that the Bible says was his downfall?

Lucifer's self-exaltation was based on a lie. God's self-exaltation is not.

Big Finn replies: You are clothing God with the attributes of the the devil and you can't even see it. The very essence of sin is self-exaltation. To charge God with that is blasphemy.

Seriously, Big Finn, you're up a tree with this one. Consider:

Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

Joh 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What a cocky self-absorbed ego-maniac God is! It looks to me like He's got some kind of "God complex." Perhaps some counseling is in order.

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Big Finn writes: So, when Jesus exemplifies selflessness how then can the Father exemplify self-exaltation?

See Jn 12:28 13:31 17:5.

Big Finn writes: Do you not see that the two concepts of self-exaltation and selflessness as mutually exclusive?

Only for self-deceived and willfully ignorant humans. Not for the omniscient and omnipotent God.

Big Finn writes: If the Father is self-exalting then we can not see Him by seeing His selfless Son. They would be opposite in character. Jesus would not reflect who His Father is. It is a very simple, but very profound concept that the whole of Calvinism denies.

You guys should start a club: "The Straw-man Calvinism Bashers Club." It reminds me of how liberals distort the views of conservatives just to make it easier to ridicule.

To Knight

Hilston originally wrote: What kind of sick and perverted mind blames God for what Satan did?

Knight replies: Well.... I guess Z Man does.

You seem to have missed my point. I was being facetious. Job credited God for what Satan did, yet did not charge foolishly.

To Poly

Poly writes: I can't stand things being contributed to the Living God that I serve.

Do you mean like the way Job contributed his calamity to the Living God?

OV version of Re 22:13: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and (maybe) the end, the first and (maybe) the last. I'm definitely not the middle, because the entire middle doesn't exist yet. Then again, neither does the end, so I can't really be that either."

Jim

 

[Sozo]

Re: Combined response to Lighthouse, Big Finn, Poly and Knight

Re: Combined response to Lighthouse, Big Finn, Poly and Knight

Originally posted by Hilston

You guys should start a club: "The Straw-man Calvinism Bashers Club." It reminds me of how liberals distort the views of conservatives just to make it easier to ridicule.

Dear Jim,

Considering the fact, that every "Calvinist" I have requested a reply to Romans 5:18 has ignored me completely, perhaps you would like to give it a go?

Romans 5:18 KJV

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

It is the same all!

If all men are not offered the free gift, then all men are not condemned.

Also, unless the gift is received then you must logically conclude that all men have life.

 

[Big Finn]

Hilston,

The Bible quite clearly draws a picture of God as not only a father, but our Father. This is a very human perception. A father is trustworthy, caring, loving, and yet master of his domain. A person who rules in love, not nitpicking domination and willing to give his children cancer. Give your Biblical support for your contention that this picture of God can be ignored, that it is meaningless.

Please show Biblically that Jesus' picture of the father in the prodigal son is not an accurate representation of what God is like. Also, if you are able to give this Biblical support for your position show us why Jesus taught this parable that is so far away from the actual reality of who God is.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Big Finn--In post #215 you are trying to MOVE the point of discussion from your assertion that Christ and His Father present contradictory personages.

My response was to demonstrate to you that men are not qualified to sit in judgement on the divine attributes of Christ and His Father. AND YOU AREN'T.

Then, attempting to prove your point, you bring in verses that in no way address the point you were originally trying to make as you tried
to put Christ and His Father at contradictory loggerheads.

You make me think of a card shark who deceitfully slips a card into the pack that does not belong there.

If you don't REALLY believe that the gospels present conflict between the Father and Christ, just say so and my point against your posts will be at an end. That is the point of my posts--not the verses which you introduced that say nothing at all to buttress your original point.

I see your shifting of the argument you began with. Are you trying to muddy the water?

 

[Rolf Ernst]

SOZO--in post #222, you say no Calvinist has answered you challenge on Romans 5:18. I gave a lengthy post on Romans chapter 5 months ago. It is probably still there.

Romans five primarily concerns the headships of Adam and Christ. If that is not observed, the apostle's point will be missed.

There are two headships in Ro. 5--the headship of Adam under which headship we all are; and the headship of Christ, under which headship are all those whom the Father chose in Christ before the foundation of the world.

The point is that Adam brought death upon all those under his headship and that Christ brings life to all those under His headship. Christ is the head of the church.

Those under the headship of Adam die not because of what THEY did, but because of what their federal head did, and that deadly effect reigned over each and everyone alike.

Those under the headship of Christ, as a consequence of the Father having chosen them in Christ before the foundation of the world LIVE--not because of what THEY do, but because of the effect wrought upon them by their federal head, Christ; and the reign of life through Christ comes to ALL those chosen in Christ, each and everyone alike.

Death to every son of Adam. Life to every son of Christ. That is why in Isaiah 9:6 He is called the "everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

The term "all," used repeatedly by Paul in chapter five, applies to either "all" those in Adam, or "all" those in Christ.

Of course, the entirety of humanity was in Adam, so we all--each and every one of us--came under the reign of death; but not "all" of humanity were chosen in Christ. Christ's headship does not apply to each and every individual as Adam's does. It applies only to those who, by God's sovereign choice, were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ said of that choosing, "many are called, but few are chosen." That is, as the gospel is declared, the call of God goes out to mankind, but few of them are chosen. Few are under the headship of Christ, but "all" that ARE under His headship live because of Him just as all died in Adam.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

BIG FINN--Again, in post 220, you mischaracterize what I say. Why are you incapable of referring to MY words without putting YOUR spin on them? Sir, in the future, when you SAY what I have said, I authorize you, sir, to go no further than to QUOTE what I said. Never before have I had to say that to anyone else. It is necessary on your part because you apparently cannot understand what I say and you wickedly try to make something of my words which I never intended. "With friends like you..."

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

Then, attempting to prove your point, you bring in verses that in no way address the point you were originally trying to make as you tried
to put Christ and His Father at contradictory loggerheads.

Either you are deliberately dishonest, you do not even read what I have said, or my logic is more than you can follow. I have never said that Christ and His Father are contradictory, but that Calvinism portrays them as having characters that are contradictory. You really need to learn to comprehend what you read.

Your Calvinist buddy zman is the one that stated that God is infatuated with Himself and in the business of self-exaltation, and boogerhead backed him up. I deny that and have since my first post on this thread. I have repeatedly said that to portray God in any other light than the selflessness we see in Jesus' life, and death, is blasphemy.

The doctrines of Calvinism deny my contentions or you guys would not be arguing with me.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

BIG FINN--okay then, big boy, show me HOW Calvinism presents them as contradictory. You have the floor; but when you speak, don't expect me to accept one of your misrepresentations of Reformed doctrine.

 

[Big Finn]

BIG FINN--okay then, big boy, show me HOW Calvinism presents them as contradictory. You have the floor; but when you speak, don't expect me to accept one of your misrepresentations of Reformed doctrine.

1. zman, a Calvinist, first said God is self-infatuated and then changed that to "God is in the business of self-exaltation".

2. boogerhead backed him up.

3. I have contended that when we see the character of Christ in the Bible we see the character of God. I agreed with your post in which you said Christ is the express image of His Father.

4. Every Calvinist on this thread has taken exception with the idea that God's character and Christ's character are one.

5. You are here arguing with my contentions.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Questions for every OVer and Arminian--

1. Who wounds?

2. Who kills?

3. Who creates evil?

4 Why was Lazareth allowed to die? Hint: Jn.11:4

5. Why was the man blind from birth? Hint: Jn.9:1-3

6. Why did Jesus speak in parables? Betcha miss this one!

7. Who has the keys of death and hell?

8. Who appointed the number of a man's days?

9. Who established a limit to man's days that he cannot pass?

10. Who appointed ALL the times of a man's life?

11. Here is some Bible trivia-- Jesus said that to some a certain thing is given, but to others it is not given. Of what was He speaking? (You won't know this one either)

12. Fill in the blank: "To you it is given not only to _____ in Him, but also to_____for His sake."

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst


Romans five primarily concerns the headships of Adam and Christ. If that is not observed, the apostle's point will be missed.

Not exactly. It concerns the condition and position of those in Adam or in Christ.

"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly"

Jesus died for the "ungodly". Are you claiming that those who are not elected, are not ungodly? Or are you stating that He only died for the "elect" ungodly?

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Are you affirming that Jesus only dies for the "elect" sinners.

For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Again, are the "elect" His enemies, or are you stating that only the "elect" enemies are reconciled?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Are you claiming that the all in this verse, does not include all men?

There are two headships in Ro. 5--the headship of Adam under which headship we all are

Correct! ALL men are born into this world in Adam.

and the headship of Christ, under which headship are all those whom the Father chose in Christ before the foundation of the world.

God did not "choose" who would be in Christ. The bible does not teach that, nor does it say that. You are making that up, to fit into your theology. God chose that those who are in Him would be holy and blameless... period.

The point is that Adam brought death upon all those under his headship and that Christ brings life to all those under His headship

ALL men are born under Adam's headship (as you have already affirmed) and are dead. And those who are in Christ are those who have been justified by faith, and have come from those who were dead in Adam.

Those under the headship of Adam die not because of what THEY did, but because of what their federal head did, and that deadly effect reigned over each and everyone alike.

Agreed! ALL are dead because of Adam's sin.

Those under the headship of Christ, as a consequence of the Father having chosen them in Christ before the foundation of the world LIVE--not because of what THEY do, but because of the effect wrought upon them by their federal head, Christ;

Please stop saying that they personally have been "chosen", it's not true, has no biblical support, and it makes you look foolish. Those in Christ have life, because they are saved by grace through faith, and that (salvation by grace) is not of themselves, but is the gift of God. God "chose" that those who receive the gift of grace through faith will receive His life. This is the basic fundemental of the gospel, which you continue to reject.

Death to every son of Adam. Life to every son of Christ.

True, but as you have already affirmed, we are ALL born into this world as a child of Adam.

The term "all," used repeatedly by Paul in chapter five, applies to either "all" those in Adam, or "all" those in Christ.

But verse 18 clearly says that ALL men have been condemned, and that the same ALL men have the justification of life! The verses do not make a distiction, and your twisting of them to fit your philosophy does an injustice to the text. One act brought death; and one act has brought the justification of life to ALL men.

ALL means ALL

Of course, the entirety of humanity was in Adam, so we all--each and every one of us--came under the reign of death; but not "all" of humanity were chosen in Christ.

Correct, not ALL men were chosen to be holy and blameless, because they must first accept the free gift. It is in Christ that all of what God has chosen from the foundation of the world is realized. Remain in Adam, and you remain dead; or accept the gift of life by grace through faith.

Christ's headship does not apply to each and every individual as Adam's does.

No, it doesn't, because the gift must be received.

It applies only to those who, by God's sovereign choice, were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

... to be holy and blameless

Christ said of that choosing, "many are called, but few are chosen." That is, as the gospel is declared, the call of God goes out to mankind, but few of them are chosen.

That would be ALL mankind, and only those who accept the gift are chosen to receive all that God has predestined for them.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Sozo.... :up:

 

[Rolf Ernst]

BIG FINN--Okay, I agree with all you say concerning Christ and the Father. You are straight with Scripture (at least in this regard).

I think some unfortunately try to express themselves through words that are not scriptural. I believe self-exaltation and self infatuation are very weak and ignoble words to use concerning God's first purpose being the manifestation of His own glory. I believe my first post to you expressed my conviction in this regard very thoroughly. I thought you were the one who was ascribing those traits to god. My mistake. As you were, soldier!

 

[Rolf Ernst]

SOZO: YOU said, "God did not choose who would be in christ"

The BIBLE says, "...He has chosen us in Him..."

"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

BIG FINN--Okay, I agree with all you say concerning Christ and the Father. You are straight with Scripture (at least in this regard).

OK. That's good. I'm actually very glad that you and I agree. Now let's look at the implications of what you just said.

1. Christ's character was that of selflessness.

2. God's character must be one of selflessness then too.

3. Any interpretation of God's actions that leads one to believe that God's character is other than one of selflessness is an incorrect interpretation and is not Biblical.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Originally posted by Sozo [/b verse 18 clearly says that ALL men have been condemned, and that the same ALL men have the justification of life!

SOZO-- Here you say that "verse 18 clearly says...that the 'same' all..."

Verse 18 nowhere says "the same all." Nowhere. You accuse me of twisting scripture, but you are the one who has to add words to scripture to promote your view of it. Check it out. The verse nowhere says, "the same all."

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

SOZO: YOU said, "God did not choose who would be in christ"

The BIBLE says, "...He has chosen us in Him..."

That is the best you can do, after I obliterated your false belief system?

"He has chosen us in Him... to be holy and blameless"

"You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"

He is speaking to His disciples, in that verse, concerning His earthly ministry. It is not a blanket statement to which you can build an entire religion (well then again, maybe YOU can).

 

[Rolf Ernst]

SOZO--It is true that Christ was speaking to the disciples of His having chosen them to be His disciples (and one of them was a devil).
But it is accord with the choice God the Father made of some to be in Christ, and in accord with the apostle's statement that "we love Him BECAUSE he first loved us."

The disciples did not make the choice in the matter of them becoming disciples. Christ did, and they followed accordingly. They did not approach Him, but Him approached them as they were occupied with other matters. "Herein is love--not that we loved Him, but that He loved us."

OVers and Arminians reverse the order, claiming to ultimately make the difference between who is elect and who is not. In their view salvation finally hinges not upon what god has done, but upon what THEY choose to do concerning Christ. But the BIBLE says that to some it is given to know and to others it is not given to know, and that to some it is GIVEN to believe in Him.

And all these are in accord with the Old Testamant--"Blessed is the man whom you choose and CAUSE to approach unto you that he may dwell in your courts." Psalm 65:4

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Big Finn--I agree with your post #235, except I must with hold total approval until I know what you mean by "selflessness." What would meet the requirements of selflessness as you understand it? And what would contradict it and end up as selfishness?


I gotta go now, and don't know if I'll be back today. Nice talkin' to you, Big finn and you too, Sozo

 

[Big Finn]

Rolf,

Big Finn--I agree with your post #235, except I must with hold total approval until I know what you mean by "selflessness." What would meet the requirements of selflessness as you understand it? And what would contradict it and end up as selfishness?

Selflessness:
1. Selflessness is what we see expressed in the life of Christ and His mission here on earth. It is at the heart of His every action. Nothing in the life of Christ ever happened that is outside of this principle.

2. Selflessness is also expressed in the sacrifice of what one holds dearest for the good of others, as in the Father sacrficing His Son.

Selfishness:
1. Anything that violates that principle expressed in the life of Christ.

2. Any action that harms others so that the person doing it might look good on the surface.


A statement of fact is not self-exaltation. When God says He is good, kind, loving, merciful, etc... He is not exalting Himself, He is simply telling us who He is.