ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

[Goose]

I've been thinking of the two extremes of Christianity. The "Nazi Christians" and the "Commie Christians".

Nazi Christians - strict, by the law, execute sinners

Commie Christians - God is "love", forgive EVERYONE(even non-repentant sinners), doesn't matter what you do cause we're forgiven

These two extremes are very wrong. The Nazis are too hard and the Commies are too soft.

I've been reading some of Bob Enyart's stuff, which is very hard. Not all the way nazi, but hard none the less. I also have experience with the soft commie christians who aren't hard at all. Not all the way commie, but soft none the less.

Under the Nazi Christian regime, we'd all be dead because we've all been executed for our sin with no chance for repentence. We'd all go to hell. With the Commie Christian regime, there is NO sense of right or wrong and everyone makes it to heaven.

Where's the balance?

I think that's kind of what Jesus means when we are to be salt. Not vinegar, not honey. But salt.

Has anyone else felt this? I'd love to hear from people who listen to Bob Enyart also. I like what he has to say most of the time, but I feel that he speaks so much of vengeance when vengeance is God's. Isn't that the governments job? Excuse me if I'm mistaken, I'd just like to know.

 

[Gerald]

Goose, your post takes me back to the "good ole days" when Zakath, KurtPh, Psycho Dave, myself and others were crossing swords with the Enyartite monarchists.

Their mouths would water at the thought of establishing an OT-style police state (and it is a police state, make no mistake), yet they would not or could not articulate how such a police state would be brought about, or how it might hold on to power.

The monarchists seemed convinced that such a coup would simply materialize, as if by divine intervention, and be maintained by the same means.

I kinda miss those days. Throwing rotten tomatoes at monarchists was a lot of fun.

 

[Goose]

I find it very interesting. I've opened my heart to the Lord a couple years ago. I'm still an infant and I find a lot of what Enyart says very inticing and he speaks the truth on a lot of things. I like listening to his show and I've grown more in my faith cause of it.

I feel open rebuke is fine. But sometimes I just feel like something isn't quite right and I'm determined to find out what it is. KGOV's Doug McBurney is it? I was listening to his show the other day, and it seemed like he had to think twice when he was thinking if just straight up whether killing an abortionist is right or wrong. I couldn't tell if he was joking! I think homosexuality is wrong but I'm not about ready to pick up the sword and seek vengeance. It's the authority's job to seek that. I also know this country's government DOESN'T make that many evil people scared of the sword to begin with.

Hypocrites are going to be punished even more so than homosexuals. I don't understand why he doesn't battle that so strongly. That's why I'm asking. Got any suggestions? From either side?

 

[godspell]

Hi goose,

Thanks for your input on the issue.

I was trying to aim the matter at hand to be one of interpretation of scripture. I understand what you're saying, and you believe a middle ground might be more comfortable?

To me - the Old Testament was full of 'this is LAW'; 'God will smite THESE PEOPLE'. If you get me. That was more like your 'Nazi' situation.

Jesus proclaimed that he was making a new covenant with man, and as such, I'm trying to make a point on what Jesus' teachings were. To me they were probably something more like your 'Communist' teachings. In all light-heartedness, I believe that Jesus was something of a hippy in his time... so you might have a point there. However, that doesn't make his teachings any less valid. I mean - if Jesus taught 'Commie' behaviour, then aren't Christians bound to follow?

If you have some scriptural input on my views on Christ, please post. I'm all for hearing what people think the NT teaches us.

 

[Goose]

I understand that. I wrote at the top of page 2 of this thread how I felt about the new teachings of Jesus Christ. I don't believe they were new commandments as much as they are the fathers of the ones that came before it. Please read the top of page 2. No one replied with any comments on it either!

 

[godspell]

goose,

I've read your post, and I must say that your method of viewing the commandment situation (the ray spreading from God) is novel!

Now, I'm not at all trying to comment on your beliefs. Your beliefs are yours alone, and I don't really think it's my place to question those.

However, on the topic of the two commandments that then father the 10, I'm really not so sure on that one. You see, Jesus spoke of a 'new covenant' not an 'ammendment to the old covenant'. Jesus, as Christians believe he was both the Son, and part of the Holy Trinity, really see him as part of God.

So, those two commandments are really straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Jesus preached love, and made it clear that judgement and condemnation were for God. We're left with the task of living our lives as best we can. Pretty fair, I say - I'll try to do that each day.

Be careful with 'what you say on the top of page 2.' It seems that you're disregarding the teachings of Jesus, or, at best, modifying them to your own end, without really citing a reason. You're entitled to think and believe what you like, but I don't think pure opinion is really arguable in a debate over scripture, do you?

I do understand your method of looking at this, though. Many Christians take the Gospels as their foundation, and the earlier scripture as a clarification (your ray). However, it's good to keep in mind a number of things:

1) The Old Testament pre-dates the New testament by millenia.
2) Jesus Declared quite clearly a 'new covenant'.
3) Jesus was both the Son of God, and part of God himself.
4) If you were following the OT to the letter, you're likely to find that you're not allowed to do things like eat shellfish or pork; that your wife will have to give a lamb to your priest after she gives birth, and that women are unclean during their period (meaning they can't attend church, or you can't if you've slept in the same bed or sat on the same seat as them that day.)

It's my belief, and I have scriptural evidence to back it up, that Jesus formed a new covenant with man, and that he wants us to leave God to be the decider in matters of good and evil; while we simply do our daily best, and follow Jesus.

I appreciate your input, goose - you obviously have some good ideas behind your beliefs, and I'm a strong supporter of those who think about what they believe. Lamb of God is good and all, but do we really need to be sheep?

 

[KurtPh]

Goose, your post takes me back to the "good ole days" when Zakath, KurtPh, Psycho Dave, myself and others were crossing swords with the Enyartite monarchists.

And don't forget Parm when he used to frequent these forums.

Ah, the memories.

Sadly, I do believe that these forums are starting to be transformed into a web version of the Enyartian distopia that we've all come to know and loath. Getting some funky vibes of late; did you know that one of the forum moderators who will rename nameless recently erased part of one of my posts for blasphemy? My goodness, it was from a movie called "The Great Outdoors" and had no sexual meaning whatsoever! I'm assuming that the quote I used (better not repeat it or else ) was believed to be reffering to sexual activity of a sort, because to this point it has not been explained to me why it was deleted. I'm still just a tad bit irritated.

In any case, as to Knight's point which began the thread, I do believe that you will find that it is the brand of Christianity that you, Mr. Enyart, and many others promote that has driven so many people away from the Churches in your nation towards other denominations or even other religions. Keep up the good work .

 

[Goose]

Godspell,

Thank you for your input and encouragment.

Jer 31:33 "But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

I know this verse. I don't think the two commandments are an ammendmant. that's not what I was trying to convey anyways. I'm not good at writing sometimes. Jesus even said himself that the Ten Commandments were derived from the Two Commandments that he gave.

Mat 22:36 "Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

I would say that there's an obvious hierarchy. Not an abolition of the law, just a derivative. Thanks again for reading my post. I know it's personal opinion, but it's important to me.

 

[kiwimac]

Kurtph,

You have me fascinated by your quote, would you PLEASE email it to me at kiwimac@37.com as I'd love to see it!

Pretty please!!!!!!!

Kiwimac

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Goose, no one I know advocates taking the law into their own hands, much the opposite. We pray that our government repents!

If you have a specific objection to something you have heard on a radio program I suggest you call them and discuss it. If you have a specific disagreement about something you have read here at TheologyOnLine let's discuss it!

 

[Goose]

Goose, no one I know advocates taking the law into their own hands, much the opposite. We pray that our government repents!

Good deal. That's what I do.

 

[beanieboy]

I've been thinking of the two extremes of Christianity. The "Nazi Christians" and the "Commie Christians".

Nazi Christians - strict, by the law, execute sinners

Commie Christians - God is "love", forgive EVERYONE(even non-repentant sinners), doesn't matter what you do cause we're forgiven

Should one only forgive someone who is repentant??

If someone wrongs you, and you say, "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us, - except that witch who cut me off in traffic, and then gave me the bird! She wasn't even sorry!!"
Or do you lie? "Forgive me as I forgive others," (except those unrepentant.)

In the story of the stoning of the adultress, she never once asked for forgiveness. Yet, Christ forgave her. He didn't condone her behavior, but he wasn't calling her a big whore and stomping off, either. He wasn't calling her a viper. He wasn't calling her a dog. He was gentle, and he forgave her even though she never asked forgiveness.

Does this make Jesus a wuss? Not in my opinion. I forgive many people. That does not mean I condone every action, I just forgive those actions. The reason that I try to forgive others is because that resentment, turns anger, turns hatred, and then begins to eat at you, making you want to strike out against other people, like a viper, and inject them with poisin, to settle the score. In turn, they do the same, and it continues that way. It chokes your soul. But to forgive makes others also want to forgive, and treat one another with kindness - the "pay it forward" theory.

 

[Goose]

Should one only forgive someone who is repentant??

Luk 17:3 "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

Yes. Only if he says he's sorry. We can't go around forgiving others of trespasses against our neighbor however. If someone owes a debt to our neighbor, we can't forgive him his debt and let him off the hook. That's our neighbor's job. Only Jesus had the power to do that on Earth.

If someone wrongs you, and you say, "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us, - except that witch who cut me off in traffic, and then gave me the bird! She wasn't even sorry!!"
Or do you lie? "Forgive me as I forgive others," (except those unrepentant.)

I like your sense of humor Beanie! LOL. The person who flips you off is a wicked individual. Not only did they do something wrong, they must of not known it was wrong. In the bible, those who don't payback their debts are wicked. They're prob very self-righteous, etc. It applies to the "finger flipper" too. I usually just laugh when someone cuts me off and gives me the finger. So foolish.

In the story of the stoning of the adultress, she never once asked for forgiveness. Yet, Christ forgave her. He didn't condone her behavior, but he wasn't calling her a big whore and stomping off, either. He wasn't calling her a viper. He wasn't calling her a dog. He was gentle, and he forgave her even though she never asked forgiveness.[

I thought I already went over this in previous pages on here? Jesus had the power to forgive for everyone while he was here on earth. Just by acknowledging that He is Lord and had the power to forgive, she accepted His forgiveness. She had a humble heart and I'm sure Jesus knew that. JESUS WANTS TO FORGIVE US! We must acknowledge him as Lord.

Does this make Jesus a wuss? Not in my opinion. I forgive many people. That does not mean I condone every action, I just forgive those actions. The reason that I try to forgive others is because that resentment, turns anger, turns hatred, and then begins to eat at you, making you want to strike out against other people, like a viper, and inject them with poisin, to settle the score. In turn, they do the same, and it continues that way. It chokes your soul. But to forgive makes others also want to forgive, and treat one another with kindness - the "pay it forward" theory.

...and hate leads to the dark-side. I know I know. I'm sure there are bad things that I did that I can't remember. I hope that God will be gracious to me on judgment day. Like those people, it was probably something small that doesn't matter a whole lot. There's a point where you just have to accept the Grace of God and that he will have to power to forgive.

Mat 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

 

[beanieboy]

Wow. You only forgive those who ask forgiveness?

So, if a father beats you, and never asks for forgiveness (few do), you can hang on to that resentment for as long as you want?

If someone cuts you off in traffic and flips you off, you can be angry at her all you want, for the rest of your life, if you want to? You are justified in telling everyone what a evil witch she was for doing so?

That's a totally foreign way for me to live.
One of the reasons I'm not Christian, anymore.

 

[Ninkasi]

That's seems perfectly reasonable to me. Why forgive someone who never asked for it?

 

[Goose]

Wow. You only forgive those who ask forgiveness?

So, if a father beats you, and never asks for forgiveness (few do), you can hang on to that resentment for as long as you want?

You give the resentment to God until he asks you for forgiveness. It might not come as a verbal asking (since father/son stuff is kinda like that), but should be able to if need be.

Could you accept the fact that he beat you as good? If so, you would have a perverse sense of right and wrong. You can't judge him in his totality but him taking part of that evil makes him evil in his transgressions against you and God will take that into account at judgement day. It's for God to send someone to hell, but you can definately say someone's on the way if you're a witness to that person's evil.

Why would God have a heaven and hell? We are either going to one or the other.

If someone cuts you off in traffic and flips you off, you can be angry at her all you want, for the rest of your life, if you want to? You are justified in telling everyone what a evil witch she was for doing so?

No, I've seen things that don't pertain to this world and things much greater. Most people who get angry are also out to seak vengeance. Let go of the vengeful mentality. Vengeance is God's. I'm sure you've heard that. People who flip me off make me laugh if anything. God will take care of those people. Either through God directly, or through the government (if they do something illegal).

YOu said you're not a christian anymore. Have you found a better way Beanie? I know things get rough sometimes, but stick to the path of truth.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Forgiveness from God/Christ is for the repentant, not the unrepentant. While we should try to forgive them, God will not until they confess their sins AND repent in a manner that convinces God, which is TRUE repentance. There are many who mouth the words on earth yet repeat their actions again and again. Those that do, never repented to God in truth, and were never forgiven their sins.

 

[beanieboy]

Does it go, "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who repent for sinning against us?"

I just don't see a point of holding a grudge.
You wrong me, I believe you suffer for it. If you lie to me, it will make me hard to believe you. If you criticize me constantly, I won't want to be around you. But I won't hate you. I won't hold a grudge. I won't curse you. I will wish you the best, and go my own way.

That's how I live my life. I try to bless those who harm me, I strive to love my enemies, I even say something to the effect of, "I need to forgive them, for they know not what they do." I don't wait for an apology. I forgive actively.

That's what my God is, and tells me to do.

And is it a better way to live than your God, goose? It is for me. It is a choice I have made. And if I burn in hell for being forgiving of the unrepentent, let me burn the brightest.

 

[beanieboy]

Goose - it seems perverse to me that you equate forgiveness, even forgiving those who do not apologize, with saying the wrong is good, or ok.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Does it go, "forgive our sins, as we forgive those who repent for sinning against us?"

I just don't see a point of holding a grudge.
You wrong me, I believe you suffer for it. If you lie to me, it will make me hard to believe you. If you criticize me constantly, I won't want to be around you. But I won't hate you. I won't hold a grudge. I won't curse you. I will wish you the best, and go my own way.

That's how I live my life. I try to bless those who harm me, I strive to love my enemies, I even say something to the effect of, "I need to forgive them, for they know not what they do." I don't wait for an apology. I forgive actively.

That's what my God is, and tells me to do.

And is it a better way to live than your God, goose? It is for me. It is a choice I have made. And if I burn in hell for being forgiving of the unrepentent, let me burn the brightest.

You actually need to look a bit deeper in the bible. It IS there that you forgive the sins of those who repent them. There are going to be those on earth who's sole purpose in life is to get you TO sin. Those are the ones you can not be around.

You are right. You SHOULDN'T hold the grudge in you. You SHOULD walk away with dignity, and without malice. You don't have to hate them, but you can't "if you are true to Christ" let this persons words take someones elses soul away from God. But again you are right, the best way is to show with your actions the difference in what each of you believe.

May I ask you something? You (I think) claimed to not be a christian, nor a believer of the God of Christ. Yet in this post, you state "That's what my God is, and tells me to do". Who is your god? I have never, until right now, heard you state your belief in a higher being, so I am confused on this point.