ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
Goose: Could you accept the fact that he beat you as good?
If so, you would have a perverse sense of right and wrong.
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I said forgive. Not condone.
You somehow took "forgiving a father who beat you" and interpreted that as condoning the behavior.
You're right. It doesn't make any sense.
If so, you would have a perverse sense of right and wrong.
___________________________________
I said forgive. Not condone.
You somehow took "forgiving a father who beat you" and interpreted that as condoning the behavior.
You're right. It doesn't make any sense.
Goose
New member
My mentality,beanieboy said:
If something is good, you applaud it.
If something is bad, you condemn it.
Simple as that.
If a molestor has his way with you, are you going to forgive him?
Molestor: Hey Beanie. How you doin'?
<Molestor does his thang>
Beanie: I don't condone what you do, but I forgive you. No grudges.
Hmm. I wonder who he'll keep on his 'hitlist'? With your mentality, one would be too forgiving to even call the cops. Don't be hypocritical Beanie. How much does one have to do that's bad before you see that it's wrong and condemn it?
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godspell
New member
Goose,
In saying what you just did, you are speaking from a purely human standpoint, not of one as a Christian. I understand completely that it would take a saint to forgive that kind of thing, but keep in mind that what we actually do and what the bible teaches us to do are often not the same.
What beanieboy is saying is correct, Jesus preached forgiveness.
Don't forget that in your humanity, or you are forgetting your religion, and forsaking Christ.
In saying what you just did, you are speaking from a purely human standpoint, not of one as a Christian. I understand completely that it would take a saint to forgive that kind of thing, but keep in mind that what we actually do and what the bible teaches us to do are often not the same.
What beanieboy is saying is correct, Jesus preached forgiveness.
Don't forget that in your humanity, or you are forgetting your religion, and forsaking Christ.
Godspell writes...
Furthermore, you can only forgive someone to the extent they have wronged you personally. Most modern day Christians preach we should forgive EVERYONE! "Forgive the Columbine killers, forgive the terrorists, forgive EVERYONE!" We have no right to forgive one neighbor's sin against another neighbor.
If godspell owes beanie $10 I have no right as a third party to forgive godspells debt to beanie.
Moreover...
Even though we may be compelled by the trespassers repentance to forgive a trespass against us that doesn't mean the government should not prosecute, convict and punish the trespasser for his crime.
The Bible says....
God does not want us to love what is evil, that would only deflate what love really is. In other words, loving what is evil makes love evil and hypocritical.
Actually it is you who is wrong. Jesus said...
So only if the trespasser repents do you forgive him.
Furthermore, you can only forgive someone to the extent they have wronged you personally. Most modern day Christians preach we should forgive EVERYONE! "Forgive the Columbine killers, forgive the terrorists, forgive EVERYONE!" We have no right to forgive one neighbor's sin against another neighbor.
If godspell owes beanie $10 I have no right as a third party to forgive godspells debt to beanie.
Moreover...
Even though we may be compelled by the trespassers repentance to forgive a trespass against us that doesn't mean the government should not prosecute, convict and punish the trespasser for his crime.
The Bible says....
So in a godly government even though the molester or criminal repents and the victim may have forgiven the trespasser that doesn't mean that the government does not uphold it's God given authority to prosecute, convict and punish the criminal for his sin.
God does not want us to love what is evil, that would only deflate what love really is. In other words, loving what is evil makes love evil and hypocritical.
godspell
New member
Goose - could you please reply without the use of sarcasm? It's not needed. We're capable of having a decent discussion on a topic without it.
Knight and Goose both; please go and read the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, if my brother keeps on sinning against me, how many times to I have to forgive him? Seven times?"
"No, not seven times," answered Jesus, "but seventy times seven, because the Kingdom of heaven is like this...."
The parable concludes:
The king was very angry, and he sent the servant to jail to be punished until he should pay buck the whole amount."
And Jesus concluded, "That is how my father in heaven will treat every one of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Matthew 18.21-35
Goose - do you concurr on this as well?
Knight and Goose both; please go and read the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant:
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, if my brother keeps on sinning against me, how many times to I have to forgive him? Seven times?"
"No, not seven times," answered Jesus, "but seventy times seven, because the Kingdom of heaven is like this...."
The parable concludes:
The king was very angry, and he sent the servant to jail to be punished until he should pay buck the whole amount."
And Jesus concluded, "That is how my father in heaven will treat every one of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Matthew 18.21-35
Goose - do you concurr on this as well?
godspell
New member
Knight -
You seem to have a concern with people forgiving a third party. You use an example of you forgiving my debt to goose. I'm not sure where that comes into any of this. I don't believe it is your place to do so, and I certainly haven't said that it is.
If you've read the parable above, surely you understand that Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother. Jesus didn't say that he'd do it for him, as a third party. This reasoning you've displayed is erroneous, and I'm not sure where you got it from.
Finally - think you could reply with a little less of the 'you are wrong' in your posts? I don't say much on this board without having scriptural references, and so far in dealing with me, neither have you. This has brought us down thus far to a matter of scriptural interpretation, and I'm not sure one can be 'wrong' as such in this. I would say misguided at best. It appears all too often to be a matter of pride when you jump up and tell people bluntly that they are wrong in a matter. Surely you're not right 100% of the time?
You seem to have a concern with people forgiving a third party. You use an example of you forgiving my debt to goose. I'm not sure where that comes into any of this. I don't believe it is your place to do so, and I certainly haven't said that it is.
If you've read the parable above, surely you understand that Jesus told Peter to forgive his brother. Jesus didn't say that he'd do it for him, as a third party. This reasoning you've displayed is erroneous, and I'm not sure where you got it from.
Finally - think you could reply with a little less of the 'you are wrong' in your posts? I don't say much on this board without having scriptural references, and so far in dealing with me, neither have you. This has brought us down thus far to a matter of scriptural interpretation, and I'm not sure one can be 'wrong' as such in this. I would say misguided at best. It appears all too often to be a matter of pride when you jump up and tell people bluntly that they are wrong in a matter. Surely you're not right 100% of the time?
godspell writes...
You continue...
You continue...
I was simply touching on various misconceptions about godly forgiveness, I was not accusing you for stating this misconception I am sorry if I mislead you.
You continue...
So, your telling me I am wrong?
You continue...
In my best Maxwell Smart voice.... "would you believe.... 99% of the time?"
godspell
New member
Knight,
Alrighty, glad we got that one sorted. The misconceptions weren't mine, but hopefully you got through to your target audience.
Nope, if you read what I wrote, I posed a question, that is - asking you if you could limit that habit, not telling you that you're dead wrong in doing so. Afterall, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
99% of the time? *grins* Well, so long as you're not trying to convince me that you're perfect, I can live happily with the knowledge that you have a sense of humour about yourself.
Alrighty, glad we got that one sorted. The misconceptions weren't mine, but hopefully you got through to your target audience.
Nope, if you read what I wrote, I posed a question, that is - asking you if you could limit that habit, not telling you that you're dead wrong in doing so. Afterall, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
99% of the time? *grins* Well, so long as you're not trying to convince me that you're perfect, I can live happily with the knowledge that you have a sense of humour about yourself.
godspell writes...
I love to make fun of myself!
And..... I even like to have fun discussions with my enemies, but there are certain topics and worldviews that do not deserve "fun" or "joyful" conversation wouldn't you agree?
By george I think we are onto something here!Nope, if you read what I wrote, I posed a question, that is - asking you if you could limit that habit, not telling you that you're dead wrong in doing so. Afterall, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
99% of the time? *grins* Well, so long as you're not trying to convince me that you're perfect, I can live happily with the knowledge that you have a sense of humour about yourself.
I love to make fun of myself!
And..... I even like to have fun discussions with my enemies, but there are certain topics and worldviews that do not deserve "fun" or "joyful" conversation wouldn't you agree?
godspell
New member
Well, there's bound to be divisive topics on this forum - it's what you get when you get a diverse group of relatively opinionated people of varying faiths and belief structures in one place. In that case, factual conversation is probably the best plan of attack (rather than attack being the best plan of conversation), although you're relatively free to choose your own course.
Now, and I'm hoping that you're not referring to me as an enemy of yours, when we're interpreting the same Word, I'd hope that we could do so in a relatively open-minded fashion, without too much grandstanding or rhetoric. The bible is there to be read and interpreted. It might not be wise of anyone to claim they know exactly what is meant, especially when you and I seem to find passages which counter each other so often. Surely that leaves a fair room for questioning, and interpretation. I could take a wild stab on this one, and suggest it's one of the main reasons there are so MANY Christian faiths out there.
Now, and I'm hoping that you're not referring to me as an enemy of yours, when we're interpreting the same Word, I'd hope that we could do so in a relatively open-minded fashion, without too much grandstanding or rhetoric. The bible is there to be read and interpreted. It might not be wise of anyone to claim they know exactly what is meant, especially when you and I seem to find passages which counter each other so often. Surely that leaves a fair room for questioning, and interpretation. I could take a wild stab on this one, and suggest it's one of the main reasons there are so MANY Christian faiths out there.
F
firechyld
Guest
*grin*
You'd pretty much be right. Christianity has a history of not liking to argue.... but doing it anyway.
Rather than debate healthily, as is customary in the Jewish Faith, they tend to splinter into smaller factions, then build themselves up to strength again.
firechyld
You'd pretty much be right. Christianity has a history of not liking to argue.... but doing it anyway.
Rather than debate healthily, as is customary in the Jewish Faith, they tend to splinter into smaller factions, then build themselves up to strength again.
firechyld
F
firechyld
Guest
(I'd like to insert that the above post was in no way meant to be insulting. I don't think it is, but I can see a few people getting huffy about it)
Goose
New member
Godspell,
Your tagline states:
But why should we judge? Because...
I don't know how much clearer I have to be. Read Jeremiah 5! See what God says about those who judge unrighteously or don't judge at all. The wicked run wild!
Your tagline states:
The focus of that passage is in the last sentence. The MEASURE! Jesus was speaking to hypcrites that haven't repented yet. What is something worth if it has no measure? What measure does God use? A non-hypocritical righteousness it is. How CAN we judge?
You CAN judge righteously. I'll give you an example. Read the whole passage to get the whole effect...
But why should we judge? Because...
I don't know how much clearer I have to be. Read Jeremiah 5! See what God says about those who judge unrighteously or don't judge at all. The wicked run wild!
F
firechyld
Guest
You watch ZIM!
*!glee!*
You are now officially in the "People who Rock according to Firechyld" club. Join me in glee...
firehcyld
PS Obey the fist!
*!glee!*
You are now officially in the "People who Rock according to Firechyld" club.
Join me in glee...firehcyld
PS Obey the fist!
godspell
New member
Goose -
This is NOT a reply to my post on forgiveness! This is a post to do with judgement. These are seperate concepts, most likely deserving seperate debates. Judgement of an individual does not negate forgiveness, nor does forgiveness of a wrong prevent judgement of the individual.
I have, previously, quoted the opening of the passage from which I took my .sig. I believe I clearly illustrated that Jesus in this case was stating that one should not judge.
I'll quote again from the preceeding lines:
"If you love only the people who love you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners do that! And if you lend only to those from whom you hope to get it back, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount! No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful."
Luke 6.32-36
So; taken in context: This, followed by my .sig, followed by the reference to hypocrites - it means quite simply do not judge. Do not judge:
a) because God does not want you to; he is merciful and you should be, also. And
b) because you're not perfect yourself, and would be a hypocrite to judge another. "Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but pay no attention to the log in your own eye?"
The use of log vs speck in this instance is a good clue, as well - not only should you not look for the speck in the first place, you should realise that if you do, you've much more to find in yourself than you will in another.
It's easy to quote a phrase or sentence and take it out of context. However, on examination of an entire passage of writing, the message is often clearer.
NB: The above was all taken from the one source, not scattered references over various gospels.
Goose, what version of the bible are you quoting from? I am concerned about the fact that I cannot find two of your references in my bible. I have also tried an online bible, and cannot find your references in Matt 7.5, Luke 7.43. Check here to see.
As for your reference from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, my translation of the bible (Good News Bible - Bible Society of Australia) Quotes:
"Whoever has the Spirit, however, is able to judge the value of everything, but no one is able to judge him."
I realise what this may look like. However, once again - read the entire passage. This passage is to do with God's wisdom, and the meaning of this sentence, in context, is that when imbued with the Holy Spirit, a man can appreciate (judge) the value of God's wisdom. Men not imbued cannot appreciate it. That's it. It's not a passage which tells us to judge others
Now, some references you should be able to find:
Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
Luke 6:36-38 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
John 8:15-17 "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me."
(This from Jesus stating that if he ever does judge, it's in his position as the Son of God, not as a mere man.)
John 12:46-48 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
(This, further into the same gospel, stating that he's not here to judge us.)
Oh dear, Jeremiah?? While I give all credence to the Old Testament, I don't believe Jeremiah really counts as a contemporary, or a counter to Jesus' own teachings. Even according to your ray of light analogy; you count Jesus' teachings as a father to those of the prophets, etc. I hope you'll excuse me if I count gospel proofs as holding a little more water in this case.
It's hard to say this without sounding nasty, so please take it in the spirit intended, but I don't think you've been very clear at all. From what I can see thus far, you've taken quotes out of context, you've provided me with some which I simply cannot find and the only reference I can see which has anything to do with judging is from the OT, when we've thus far been debating that which is most relevant to Christians (as it's Christ they follow) - the New Testament.
Finally, when it comes to matters of scriptural interpretation, I don't think we can say with certainty that there is a WRONG and a RIGHT answer. Merely differing interpretations of the same. Let's discuss it in this manner, maybe we'll each gain something from the experience!
Godspell
This is NOT a reply to my post on forgiveness! This is a post to do with judgement. These are seperate concepts, most likely deserving seperate debates. Judgement of an individual does not negate forgiveness, nor does forgiveness of a wrong prevent judgement of the individual.
I have, previously, quoted the opening of the passage from which I took my .sig. I believe I clearly illustrated that Jesus in this case was stating that one should not judge.
I'll quote again from the preceeding lines:
"If you love only the people who love you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners do that! And if you lend only to those from whom you hope to get it back, why should you receive a blessing? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount! No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful."
Luke 6.32-36
So; taken in context: This, followed by my .sig, followed by the reference to hypocrites - it means quite simply do not judge. Do not judge:
a) because God does not want you to; he is merciful and you should be, also. And
b) because you're not perfect yourself, and would be a hypocrite to judge another. "Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but pay no attention to the log in your own eye?"
The use of log vs speck in this instance is a good clue, as well - not only should you not look for the speck in the first place, you should realise that if you do, you've much more to find in yourself than you will in another.
It's easy to quote a phrase or sentence and take it out of context. However, on examination of an entire passage of writing, the message is often clearer.
NB: The above was all taken from the one source, not scattered references over various gospels.
Goose, what version of the bible are you quoting from? I am concerned about the fact that I cannot find two of your references in my bible. I have also tried an online bible, and cannot find your references in Matt 7.5, Luke 7.43. Check here to see.
As for your reference from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, my translation of the bible (Good News Bible - Bible Society of Australia) Quotes:
"Whoever has the Spirit, however, is able to judge the value of everything, but no one is able to judge him."
I realise what this may look like. However, once again - read the entire passage. This passage is to do with God's wisdom, and the meaning of this sentence, in context, is that when imbued with the Holy Spirit, a man can appreciate (judge) the value of God's wisdom. Men not imbued cannot appreciate it. That's it. It's not a passage which tells us to judge others
Now, some references you should be able to find:
Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
Luke 6:36-38 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
John 8:15-17 "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me."
(This from Jesus stating that if he ever does judge, it's in his position as the Son of God, not as a mere man.)
John 12:46-48 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
(This, further into the same gospel, stating that he's not here to judge us.)
Oh dear, Jeremiah?? While I give all credence to the Old Testament, I don't believe Jeremiah really counts as a contemporary, or a counter to Jesus' own teachings. Even according to your ray of light analogy; you count Jesus' teachings as a father to those of the prophets, etc. I hope you'll excuse me if I count gospel proofs as holding a little more water in this case.
It's hard to say this without sounding nasty, so please take it in the spirit intended, but I don't think you've been very clear at all. From what I can see thus far, you've taken quotes out of context, you've provided me with some which I simply cannot find and the only reference I can see which has anything to do with judging is from the OT, when we've thus far been debating that which is most relevant to Christians (as it's Christ they follow) - the New Testament.
Finally, when it comes to matters of scriptural interpretation, I don't think we can say with certainty that there is a WRONG and a RIGHT answer. Merely differing interpretations of the same. Let's discuss it in this manner, maybe we'll each gain something from the experience!
Godspell
goose said:
What is the obsession with child molestation?
Anyway, would I be hurt? Yes. Would I call the police? Well, I'm guessing I would tell my parents, hopefully, and they would call the police. Would I want him to go to jail? Yes, because it would protect me, and other people.
Would I hate him? Probably, for a while. But I would have to either choose to hate him forever, or to forgive him, and let it go.
I know people that have a "I will NEVER FORGIVE him for that!" attitude, and it gets in the way of everything, because they won't forgive and let go.
Was Jesus saying, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" because they were sorry? No.
Did they ask forgiveness? No.
Was he saying, "No sweat with the cross thing. I was in my 30s anyway." No. It's ridiculous. Yet, he not only forgave everyone, but asked God to as well.