ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

[Lion]

Be careful...very very careful...

Be careful...very very careful...

E-Well you could have just said so. It’s not easy to go over nine million posts to see what you might be talking about.

I completely agree with what you said in your last post, but I have a bit of a problem with you since you spouted off about it while we were in the middle of a debate with a non-Christian, which gave the impression that we (the Christians speaking to him) were being too hateful. If that’s not what you meant then why butt in with a worthless remark? If that is what you mean, please tell me where we are being too hateful and not loving?

And yes I do know He is One and the Same. Did you mean that as a slam? Not very loving of you to mock me. Perhaps you should repent before it is too late, I wouldn’t want to see you lose your salvation over something like this.

 

[Goose]

Evangelion,

Could you try to define your point clearer than because you're confusing to me. I believe that honoring your parents might not necessarily mean doing what they want you to do. You're still honoring them.

 

[Evangelion]

Lion - you're a touchy little fellow, aren't you? 90% paranoia, 10% dogma. Sheesh.

You wrote:

Be careful...very very careful...

About what?

Is that supposed to be some kind of clumsy threat?

E-Well you could have just said so.

You could have just paid attention in the first place.

It’s not easy to go over nine million posts to see what you might be talking about.

It wasn't even necessary.

I completely agree with what you said in your last post,

Fine.

but I have a bit of a problem with you since you spouted off about it while we were in the middle of a debate with a non-Christian, which gave the impression that we (the Christians speaking to him) were being too hateful.

Read more carefully next time.

If that’s not what you meant then why butt in with a worthless remark?

It wasn't a worthless remark. I was simply trying to inject a little perspective.

Sorry if that's not your thing.

If that is what you mean, please tell me where we are being too hateful and not loving?

That wasn't what I meant.

How you can say "I completely agree with what you said in your last post" and still come up with all these objections, I'll never know.

And yes I do know He is One and the Same.

Oh, so you're into tautologies, are you?

Cute.

Here's a tip - if you want it to make sense, you'll need to omit the redundant use of the definite article.

Did you mean that as a slam?

No, I was simply being helpful.

Not very loving of you to mock me.

I wasn't mocking you.

Grow up.

Perhaps you should repent before it is too late,

[sarcasm]Ooooh, yes you're quite right, I'm sure God takes a pretty harsh view of people who insist upon the rules of grammar, that's a terrible sin isn't it?[/sarcasm]

I wouldn’t want to see you lose your salvation over something like this.

Rest assured, it's not going to happen.

Incidentally, may I infer from this comment that you're not an OSAS adherent?


Goose you wrote:

Could you try to define your point clearer than because you're confusing to me.

I quoted Scripture.

Sorry if that's confusing.

I'll try to use less of it in future.

I believe that honoring your parents might not necessarily mean doing what they want you to do. You're still honoring them.

Agreed.

But only if they're asking you to do something that's (a) downright immoral, or (b) contradictory to your belief system.

At the risk of confusing you further, perhaps I might be permitted to quote some more Scripture...?

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

The principle is universal.

Think about it and get back to me.

 

[beanieboy]

You're contradicting yourself all over the place Beanie. A while ago you tell us you're a sinner. A couple posts ago you said that you haven't accepted Jesus into your heart. Now you say you have conversations with God. Why don't you just humble yourself and tell us the truth. What's really holding you up?

You don't listen very well. I've learned that about you. So I will type slowly.
I have repeatedly referred to myself as agnostic.
By that, I mean that I believe in God, but I don't believe it is possible for man to understand God completely, only to seek God. In approaching it from a point that I will always be a student searching for more understanding, I have found God in Wicca, in Muslim faith, in Christianity, and even in atheism. I used to refer to God as The Universe. It reminded me of the vastness of God. But I often use the small g to not confuse anyone.

I admitted that I am a sinner? Huh. My impression was that we are ALL sinners? Am I mistaken in this?

 

[Evangelion]

They never listen, Beanie.

They never. Ever. Listen.

 

[beanieboy]

Re: Talk the talk and walk the walk, that's love.

Re: Talk the talk and walk the walk, that's love.

Lion - so, you hate your son, because you love him. But he loves this girl. And 2 years later, they decide that they are going to get married. Do you still hate him? Do you hold this against them for the rest of their life? They never repent of living together, but they do get married for legal reasons, and because they feel they are ready.

 

[o2bwise]

Man, beanieboy, you ascribe MEANING to certain terms that almost NO ONE in our culture does!

Defining agnosticism as inclusive of "believe in God, but being unable to completely understand him." Most people think of agnosticism as the uncertainty of the very existence of God - in fact, I'd bet Webster is probably close to that.

Defining atheism as inclusive of "I have found God there."

It's pretty tuff to communicate effectively when you use terminology with your own definitions, especially when they are radical departures from the dictionary.

How is one to acquire your MEANING when you do the above?

 

[beanieboy]

When Corinthians says, "Love is gentle, love is kind..." I should write that off?

 

[beanieboy]

You don't listen very well. I've learned that about you. So I will type slowly.
I have repeatedly referred to myself as agnostic.
By that, I mean that I believe in God, but I don't believe it is possible for man to understand God completely, only to seek God.

And the definition in webster's is the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not there is a God. I don't know that there is. I don't know that there is not. I can't define it, and I refuse to commit to any one religion's definition of God. How is that not agnostism?

My point was, in response to the post, that I never defined myself as Christian. Ever. I am not contradicting myself to say that I'm am unsure whether there is a God or not, yet I pray to him/her/it. I talk to dead friends, often. I don't know for certain that they are there, but I talk to them anyway. Same idea. I sense them, and I would like to believe that their spirit is still with us.

I have conversations with god. Because I was raised christian, it is my frame of reference. And the more I talk, the more I seem to be led to many of the teaching of Buddhism. What's the truth? I'm still trying to figure that out. But I am reminded of the "when we see God, we see a poor reflection, and not until we are in Heaven will we see God clearly." And I am reminded of that over and over. So when someone says, "I can see God clearly," I question. When they think they have a direct transmission from God, I question. When they exhalt themselves using God, I question. And often, I find myself saying, "I'm looking for you, but a lot of the answers I'm given aren't making sense. A lot of what I'm taught isn't making sense, and you seem to be leading me to unorthodox teachings, and Buddhism, and other places that surprise me. But understand that I am trying." And it feels right in my heart.

And as for being a sinner, I would say that we all qualify. To state otherwise is self delusion.

 

[beanieboy]

They never listen, Beanie.

They never. Ever. Listen.

Tell me about it.

You know, here's something that I find curious. I am not a christian. I don't think Jesus was the son of God, and died for my sins. I don't even know if God exists, really.

Yet, most people are worried about who I have sex with. Whether we are talking about abortion, or harsh rebuke vs. the gentle approach, it always comes back to (Yahtzee), and my repentance. That's how I am seen. As a homosexual. Little else. Not even as a nonchristian. Just a big, bad, evil homosexual.

However, my understanding of christianity is that the most important focus should be on witnessing, and asking me to accept jesus. But the focus seems to be on homosexuality. It's really odd. My sexuality is more important than salvation.

 

[Goose]

...render to Caesar's the thing that is Caesar's...

Now give me an example, or a situation of what you mean. I think you might be equivocal on the verse.

 

[Goose]

Evangelion,

I'll give you an example. Say my father wanted me to cheat on my taxes so I could get more money. Would I be rendering to Caesar's what is caesar's(cause my dad wants me too) or would I be cheating. Just who is Caesar in your point?

 

[beanieboy]

beanie,

I too agree with Lion. It's a shame he had to restate it twice. You're love can't be hypocritical. You're points of argument are about to come full circle.

When I was studying psychology, there was an interesting study where four people were asked questions, such as, "which line is longer." Three were plants, and they would all choose one of the shorter lines. The subject, reluctantly, would then agree.

My point? That no matter how many times goose/lion/knight say to each other, "yes, what you said!" "good post! You're right" doesn't necessarily make it correct. I've never been a sucker for peer pressure, or to think that because I'm outnumbered, they are necessarily correct. The fact that you never seem to disagree about anything is a little Borg-like.

Actually, it's a sign of a weak argument if this mutual admiration club has to constantly step in an say, "well said" or "I agree" every other post. Your posts should be able to stand on their own.

 

[Goose]

You don't listen very well. I've learned that about you. So I will type slowly.
I have repeatedly referred to myself as agnostic.
By that, I mean that I believe in God, but I don't believe it is possible for man to understand God completely, only to seek God. In approaching it from a point that I will always be a student searching for more understanding, I have found God in Wicca, in Muslim faith, in Christianity, and even in atheism. I used to refer to God as The Universe. It reminded me of the vastness of God. But I often use the small g to not confuse anyone.

I admitted that I am a sinner? Huh. My impression was that we are ALL sinners? Am I mistaken in this?

There is only one God. He is NOT the universe. He created it. Don't worship the created, only the Creator. Evangelion could attest to this too I bet.

You're right we are all sinners. But some of us in here have repented. Other's have not. That will make a big difference on judgment day. Have you repented of all the wrongs you've done? If not, why not?

 

[Goose]

Man, beanieboy, you ascribe MEANING to certain terms that almost NO ONE in our culture does!

Defining agnosticism as inclusive of "believe in God, but being unable to completely understand him." Most people think of agnosticism as the uncertainty of the very existence of God - in fact, I'd bet Webster is probably close to that.

Defining atheism as inclusive of "I have found God there."

It's pretty tuff to communicate effectively when you use terminology with your own definitions, especially when they are radical departures from the dictionary.

How is one to acquire your MEANING when you do the above?

Agreed.

 

[Evangelion]

Goose you wrote:

Now give me an example, or a situation of what you mean.

I gave you Jesus' own example.

Wasn't that good enough? Can't you understand the principle?

I think you might be equivocal on the verse.

I think you'll quickly learn that it's unwise to make too many assumptions about me...

Evangelion,

I'll give you an example. Say my father wanted me to cheat on my taxes so I could get more money.

Uh... OK...

Would I be rendering to Caesar's what is caesar's (cause my dad wants me too) or would I be cheating.

You've missed it again.

Your dad is not Caesar! The taxman is Caesar! So you render to the taxman the things that are the taxman's (i.e. your taxes, duly paid in full) and you explain to your dad why you are doing so.

Interestingly enough, this is precisely what Jesus had said in the verse I have cited at least three times already.

Just who is Caesar in your point?

Firstly, it's Jesus' point, not mine.

Secondly, "Caesar" = the ruling powers of the land.

We are required to obey the laws of the land...

...wherever they do not conflict with the teachings of Christ.

Simple.

 

[Goose]

When Corinthians says, "Love is gentle, love is kind..." I should write that off?

Those are descriptions of love. Not love itself. You don't know what love or the consequences of love are. You're only confusing yourself. If you did know what love is, you would have accepted Jesus. But you CAN learn what love is, like I did, if you accept Jesus. Reading a verse isn't going to clear it all up for you. It can only describe what love is.

Jesus must reign in your heart for you to understand it all. God is love. You do not love Jesus. God is also an all consuming fire. I'm sure the Sodomites can attest to that.

 

[beanieboy]

There is only one God. He is NOT the universe. He created it. Don't worship the created, only the Creator. Evangelion could attest to this too I bet.

You're right we are all sinners. But some of us in here have repented. Other's have not. That will make a big difference on judgment day. Have you repented of all the wrongs you've done? If not, why not?

Because I don't agree with you.

I consider smoking bad. It harms your lungs. It makes you sick more often. It can eventually lead to cancer.

The same cannot be said of homosexuality. I cannot find any negative effects that cannot be said of heterosexuality.

As for the things that do have negative effects? I don't repent of them. I just identify what they are, the negative effects, and try to cut them out of my life.

 

[Evangelion]

Just for the record, I don't believe in hell. (No, I'm not a Universalist.)

Or immortal souls.

Oh, and I don't believe that we go to heaven when we die, either.

Just so you know.

 

[beanieboy]

Those are descriptions of love. Not love itself. You don't know what love or the consequences of love are. You're only confusing yourself. If you did know what love is, you would have accepted Jesus. But you CAN learn what love is, like I did, if you accept Jesus. Reading a verse isn't going to clear it all up for you. It can only describe what love is.

Jesus must reign in your heart for you to understand it all. God is love. You do not love Jesus. God is also an all consuming fire. I'm sure the Sodomites can attest to that.

Ok. I'll bite. I don't know what love is.

So, explain it to me. The verse describes love as gentle, patient, kind, slow to anger. Why?