ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

[Nathon Detroit]

HSG,

I thought you weren't going to post to this thread anymore?

I'm on my second time around of reading the bible actually. For someone who preaches non-judge-righteous, silence and love, you sure seem to be hypocritical.

LOL!

MSG is actually pretty good at judging isn't he?

 

[Lion]

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha

Ha Ha ha ha ha ha

Knight-That would depend on your definition of good.

Great signature Knight!

 

[beanieboy]

Lion:Well God’s heart does work that way. Look, the Bible never says anywhere “Hate the sin, love the sinner.” That is a cliché’ that helps send people to hell.
_____________________________

I realize the bible doesn't say that. It does command that we love our neighbor as ourself. And loving by hating is the kind of doubletalk that one can find in 1984, if one dare to read beyond the bible.

Unfortunately, your extremes make you fearful to love, for fear that you will love someone all the way to hell. Thus, we go back to the theme of the thread - honey and vinegar. Dogs, for example, want to please their masters. If you beat the animal into submission, it will do what you want and be miserable. But if you praise it for the good it does, it will want to please you more. The beaten dog will do everything out of fear, and won't strive to do more than it has to to avoid being punished.

It is to say, "love God or die." Either choice seems dismal.

I don't think it is possible to "love people all the way to hell." A parent can punish a child without hating it. My parents didn't turn their love off and on every time I did something bad. I was punished if I disobeyed, but they didn't stop talking to me, turn a cold shoulder, act indifferent, call me names, or any of the things that demonstrates hate. They just gave me a suitable punishment, and told me that I had to be accountable.

However, I think you can hate people all the way to hell. It is easy to make someone feel so unworthy of respect and love that they don't even respect and love themselves, and so they just give up on themselves.

Here I think we disagree, which is fine.

I understand the "tough love" thing. I've seen the talk shows where parents send their kids to boot camp because they won't listen. And it seems like the kid just wants attention, and the parent won't hand out any discipline whatsoever. So the kid continues to rebel, wanting attention. But that doesn't seem like "love" to me. That's just laziness. Usually the parent just doesn't want to deal with the kid, and thus, you get unruly kids, because they aren't corrected ever. Extremes. Bad, bad things.

 

[beanieboy]

Re: God hating us because we sin.

I don't hate anyone because they sin. I understand that people aren't perfect. Sometimes, even those with the best of intentions make mistakes, myself included. So I forgive. I understand.

And if God can't be at least that good, he has no place in my life. I would be truly unhappy to have to bean counter hating me for every petty thing I did that offended him. No time for people like that, and no time for a God like that.

 

[beanieboy]

LOL!

MSG is actually pretty good at judging isn't he?

I thought you were encouraging that.

 

[Goose]

I thought you were encouraging that.

We encourage judging righteously. NOT judging hypocritically or even hypocrisy in general. Jesus tells us that hypocrites are worse than sodomites. Read Matthew 7:1-5 which tells us step-by-step just how to judge righteously. Not just the first verse.

 

[beanieboy]

Wow. So, one FIRST must be reflective of their own faults before pointing out the faults of others. Then, they can more clearly point out the SLIGHT faults of others (plank vs. speck.)

What a revelation.

Something HSG and I and others have been saying since the beginning.

 

[Goose]

Re: God hating us because we sin.
...And if God can't be at least that good, he has no place in my life. I would be truly unhappy to have to bean counter hating me for every petty thing I did that offended him. No time for people like that, and no time for a God like that.

Come on Beanie. Let's get some of your liberal, open-mindedness working. I think there is a difference between a sin and a mistake. I don't think you're going to hell if you make a left hand turn when you should have taken a left. Doh! A sin is something you lust after or something that's just down right evil. A sin could also be as simple as having pleasure letting those that do sin. If you love evil, you're a sinner. You need to be truly sorry for those sins. You can't be perfect all the way. You'll still be tempted like Jesus was. But, that's why we as christians live under a covanent of grace.

I abhor evil. Simple as that. If I had a child who sinned, I wouldn't get irrate and beat the snot out of him. I would deal with it in a rational, rightly judging matter. I'm more powerful then him. I'm not going to abuse my powers. God gave me the authority to deal with these matters and I pray that I would use the same standards that God will use with me when I'm judged.

 

[Goose]

Wow. So, one FIRST must be reflective of their own faults before pointing out the faults of others. Then, they can more clearly point out the SLIGHT faults of others (plank vs. speck.)

What a revelation.

Something HSG and I and others have been saying since the beginning.

If that's true, then why do you argue with all the christians on here (besides HSG)?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Beanie says...

I realize the bible doesn't say that. It does command that we love our neighbor as ourself. And loving by hating is the kind of doubletalk that one can find in 1984, if one dare to read beyond the bible.

Actually I don't think there is any doubletalk here at all. But one needs to REALLY think about what true hatred would be.

I think true hatred would be to hold someone's hand as they blazed a trail for hell.

I think it would be more loving to warn the hellbound even if it is uncomfortable at times.

‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17

Therefore loving your neighbor MAY involve rebuking him harshly.

 

[Goose]

I agree with Knight. I never read about Jesus holding a sinners hand and telling him everythings going to be ok. He's not Stuart Smiley from 90's SNL. "I'm smart enough, I'm good enough, and dad gone it, people like me" type stuff. He warned them. He even called them names. He was offensive. He was a man. Not a woman. He had the hardness of a man. Not the tender love of a woman. When Jesus chased the merchants out of the temple, was he nice about it? How long did it take him to make that whip? Did he use it in a nice way? Did he just nudge the tables over, or did he utterly flip them with all his strength?

 

[beanieboy]

Come on Beanie. Let's get some of your liberal, open-mindedness working. I think there is a difference between a sin and a mistake. I don't think you're going to hell if you make a left hand turn when you should have taken a left. Doh! A sin is something you lust after or something that's just down right evil. A sin could also be as simple as having pleasure letting those that do sin. If you love evil, you're a sinner. You need to be truly sorry for those sins. You can't be perfect all the way. You'll still be tempted like Jesus was. But, that's why we as christians live under a covanent of grace.

I abhor evil. Simple as that. If I had a child who sinned, I wouldn't get irrate and beat the snot out of him. I would deal with it in a rational, rightly judging matter. I'm more powerful then him. I'm not going to abuse my powers. God gave me the authority to deal with these matters and I pray that I would use the same standards that God will use with me when I'm judged.

Would you tell you son you hated him when he did wrong? Especially if he wasn't sorry?

Let's say your 19 year old son is living with his girlfriend, and sexually active. You disagree with him, and he disagrees with you. You say it is a sin, because the bible is clear about fornication.

Do you tell your son you hate him?

This is what Lion says God advocates. Is that correct Lion?

 

[beanieboy]

I agree with Knight. I never read about Jesus holding a sinners hand and telling him everythings going to be ok. He's not Stuart Smiley from 90's SNL. "I'm smart enough, I'm good enough, and dad gone it, people like me" type stuff. He warned them. He even called them names. He was offensive. He was a man. Not a woman. He had the hardness of a man. Not the tender love of a woman. When Jesus chased the merchants out of the temple, was he nice about it? How long did it take him to make that whip? Did he use it in a nice way? Did he just nudge the tables over, or did he utterly flip them with all his strength?

What did Jesus say to Zacheus?
Did he rebuke him harshly?
Did he call him names?
Or did he "hold his hand" by asking him to dine with him, something that no one else would do because he was a "sinner?"

Yes, he went into the TEMPLE and flipped the tables over. But did he do the same in the brothels? Not that is mentioned. Now, why do you think that is?

And name calling? The Pharissees? Again? Really?

 

[beanieboy]

And again with the extremes.

One must either "hand hold to hell" or rebuke harshly.

That's like saying let a child do what ever he wants, or spank the child for every little thing.

There are other options. It's called being moderate.

 

[Goose]

Would you tell you son you hated him when he did wrong? Especially if he wasn't sorry?

Let's say your 19 year old son is living with his girlfriend, and sexually active. You disagree with him, and he disagrees with you. You say it is a sin, because the bible is clear about fornication.

Do you tell your son you hate him?

This is what Lion says God advocates. Is that correct Lion?

Proverbs 27:5 "Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed."

I'd probably not only talk with my son and his girlfriend, I'd also try to talk with the girl's family. I'd go public even. I'd be ashamed of my son. I would be harsh. I wouldn't get irrational or abusive, but I definately would be very abrasive. I would cry at the death of my son, just as any father would. Sin is death. Repentance and acceptance of forgivness is quickening the dead.

I definately would not try to cover up my love for him and being 19, I would ask him to leave if he lived in immorality so not to effect my other children living at home. I would have to protect my children doing good, lest I taint them and send a wolf among my little sheep. I'm the shepard and God has given me a rod of authority.

I will not provide for evil. I would despise him and the things he did. I would also tell him that he doesn't have to do the things he does and that I and God would forgive him if he truly asked for forgiveness. "Ask, and it shall be given to you." I would forgive him if he repented.

"Knock, and it shall be opened"

Something tells me it would take a while if my son was that deep in immorality to come back, knock at my door, and apologize. He has dishonored God, me and the rest of my household.

"Ask and it shall be given you"

If it sought for forgiveness with a true heart, I would give it to him. After all, it wouldn't be turning my back on my son. He turned his back on me when he started loving sin.

This is coming from someone only 2 years older than his 19 year old son, so I'm sure there are some areas that I will refine as I get older and wiser, but I think I have a good general idea.

 

[beanieboy]

So, you are saying that if he lived on his own with his girlfriend, you would tell him that you hated him, and would continue to hate him until he changed?

 

[Goose]

What did Jesus say to Zacheus?
Did he rebuke him harshly?
Did he call him names?
Or did he "hold his hand" by asking him to dine with him, something that no one else would do because he was a "sinner?"

Yes, he went into the TEMPLE and flipped the tables over. But did he do the same in the brothels? Not that is mentioned. Now, why do you think that is?

And name calling? The Pharissees? Again? Really?

Argh. You just don't get it. Jesus looks at our hearts. Let's have a look shall we?

First, merchants were in Jesus Father's House. The house of God. A temple of God. "You make my father's house a den of thieves". Brothels are houses of evil. God has no place there except to call sinners to repentance and live in his father's house.

"seek, and ye shall find"

Luk 19:3-4 "And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that [way]."

He was zealous for his savior! He wanted to learn what Jesus had to say so much, that he RAN and climbed up a tree just to hear and see Jesus!

Luk 19:6 "And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully."

Jesus knew Zaccaeus's heart. You could outwardly tell that this man loved Jesus! For the first time maybe in his life, Zaccaeus had a change of heart. He wanted to listen to Jesus.He loved Jesus. You hate Jesus. You walk the other way. You argue with Him and His word. In your heart, you would rather spit on Jesus and his followers rather than listen to what He has to say, humble yourself and ask for forgiveness. You don't love God enough to change from what you do and who you are because of your love of sin. You CAN change! There CAN be a remission and cleansing of sin, but you need to ask Jesus for help.

Luk 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Zaccaeus was lost, but he received Jesus into his house, repented and was saved. You can do the same. What is holding you back?

 

[beanieboy]

I don't hate Jesus. Show me where I have ever said that.

You say that you speak the word of God. I think you don't. I have a problem with you, not with God. I think you don't have love. You have a lot of vindication. It's pretty creepy, actually.

Zacheus was asked to come down from the tree and dine with Jesus. Zacheus didn't welcome Jesus. Jesus welcomed Zacheus, and did it with kindness. He did it to the shock of the public. And he didn't say that he wouldn't dine with Zacheus until after he changed. He didn't call Zacheus a thieving tax collector. He didn't call him a cheat. He didn't call him a dog, or a whore. He called him by name, and was gentle. He loved him "while we were yet sinners."

Yet, some people here want me to believe that God hates us for our sin. I say, bologna. I say, you serve evil forces. It's as if you want God to hate certain people. And it keeps reminding me of the people that would say, "I'm going to heaven and you're not!" Some people can't enjoy what they have unless they know others don't have it, and flaunt it. It's weird. And it's twisted.

You say that Jesus was angry. So why wasn't he upetting the brothels? Why wasn't he rebuking them harshly? Why wasn't he calling them names? Was he "holding their hands to hell?" Where is all of this harshness, except where people exhalted themselves?

If I don't "get it," it's because you are a loud gong thinking it is making beautiful music.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Goose]

So, you are saying that if he lived on his own with his girlfriend, you would tell him that you hated him, and would continue to hate him until he changed?

He would be dead to me. You see hate and love as emotions. I think of hate, despise and abhor as synonymous. I wouldn't stop telling or trying to show him God's plan of salvation, but there would be consequences to his evil actions. I would be sorrowful that he chose to side with evil. I would forever keep at the the door of his heart till he comes knocking. Till then, he's got to survive outside without God.

 

[beanieboy]

Can you explain what "he would be dead to me" means?

Does that mean that you would cut him out of your life? And if so, how would you keep at the door to his heart, exactly?

Would this apply if he decided, as an adult, to smoke? If he swore on occassion? If he worked on the Sabath? etc.?