ARCHIVE: Thread Theft (docrob and Knight)

[docrob57]

Let me get this straight...
Those who believe God knows exactly what is going to happen in the future say that OVers are limiting God, all the while believing God to be impotent to stop bad things from happening.:think:

Who ever says that God is impotent to stop bad things? Many times He does not want to. This is why the failure to give God's sovereignty its proper place is such a serious problem for the OVers. All 20 of them!

 

[Lighthouse]

God is sovereign. I know that. But to believe God delegates child molestation, or has known that it was going to happen since before He created the Earth, shows that one does not know, or understand God's character. The only way God is powerless to stop something is if He doesn't know it's going to happen. And that falls into the idea that God is sovereign.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I do not think that settled vs. conditional is a legitimate set of opposites. In fact, I am really not sure that the question "is the future conditional" is a legitimate question? Conditioned on what? is a question that I think that would need to be answered before proceding along that line.

Doc, your wearing me out. I didn't bring up the conditional future argument - YOU DID! Remember?

I am simply showing you that if the future is conditional upon future events then the future CANNOT be settled because it is reliant upon the yet-to-be-determined-conditional events. Get the point?

If you would like to acknowledge now that the future is NOT conditional I will consider it a victory and remind you every time in the future when you bring up "conditional prophecy" as you did early in this thread.

 

[docrob57]

Doc, your wearing me out. I didn't bring up the conditional future argument - YOU DID! Remember?

I am simply showing you that if the future is conditional upon future events then the future CANNOT be settled because it is reliant upon the yet-to-be-determined-conditional events. Get the point?

If you would like to acknowledge now that the future is NOT conditional I will consider it a victory and remind you every time in the future when you bring up "conditional prophecy" as you did early in this thread.

You guys consider virtually everything a victory. Yes, the future is conditional (as best as I understand what you mean by that). Yes God knows exactly what will happen. He interacts with man to bring about the outcome that he knows will happen. He needs to do this because man does have a free will.

And you aren't the first person I've worn out. Just ask my ex-wife.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, the future is conditional

Conditional upon what?

 

[Lighthouse]

You guys consider virtually everything a victory. Yes, the future is conditional (as best as I understand what you mean by that). Yes God knows exactly what will happen. He interacts with man to bring about the outcome that he knows will happen. He needs to do this because man does have a free will.

And you aren't the first person I've worn out. Just ask my ex-wife.

Hold on. God knows exactly what will happen in a conditional future, and he interacts with us to bring about what he knows will happen, therefore making it happen, but we have a choice?:dizzy:

Can you explain this to me: For God to know what will happen, He has to see it, correct? And to see it, it has to exist somewhere, correct? And if it already exists it's already happened. And if it's already happened, then we will do exactly what has already happened. Therefore we can't do anything other than what has already happened, aka what we've already done. So we've done it, before we've done it. We've already made the choice before we even knew of the possibility of the choice. IS that what you're saying? Because it would have to be that wya for what you say to be correct. And so where does it exist? How long has it existed? How many times has it happened? How many times will it continue to happen?:dizzy:

 

[docrob57]

Conditional upon what?

Okay, let's step back because this is getting silly. My purpose in this thread, to which you have frequently referred, is to challenge the idea that God has ever made false or unfulfilled prophecies. An idea which I frankly consider blasphemous. Your argument is that God has done this because, as in the case of Jonah, God said that Nineveh would be destroyed and it was not. My argument is that this is an overly restrictive view of the prophesy in that here and elsewhere, the implication is that if the object of the prophesy repents, the punishment will not be carried out. This is the conditional part. To point out that a statement did not prove literally true, such as in Jonah, is an unfulfilled prophesy only if we ignore the conditional nature of the statement.

That is how I brought the idea of "conditional" into the conversation. How this translates into the question "is the future conditional" I don't know. Ultimately it is not, but this does not mean that God will not act in a given way based on what he knows will be the reaction of the person(s) acted upon. To that extent, I am sure there are "conditional" events out there, just as there were in Biblical times.

 

[docrob57]

Hold on. God knows exactly what will happen in a conditional future, and he interacts with us to bring about what he knows will happen, therefore making it happen, but we have a choice?:dizzy:

Can you explain this to me: For God to know what will happen, He has to see it, correct? And to see it, it has to exist somewhere, correct? And if it already exists it's already happened. And if it's already happened, then we will do exactly what has already happened. Therefore we can't do anything other than what has already happened, aka what we've already done. So we've done it, before we've done it. We've already made the choice before we even knew of the possibility of the choice. IS that what you're saying? Because it would have to be that wya for what you say to be correct. And so where does it exist? How long has it existed? How many times has it happened? How many times will it continue to happen?:dizzy:

I can understand why you would be dizzy, given your limited comprehension of the concepts we are discussing. :chuckle: Just kidding.

No, my argument for many moons is that God does NOT have to "see it" to know what will happen. I addressed that earlier in this thread and many times in other threads. That really addresses all of the other questions as well.

 

[Delmar]

Okay, let's step back because this is getting silly. My purpose in this thread, to which you have frequently referred, is to challenge the idea that God has ever made false or unfulfilled prophecies. An idea which I frankly consider blasphemous. Your argument is that God has done this because, as in the case of Jonah, God said that Nineveh would be destroyed and it was not. My argument is that this is an overly restrictive view of the prophesy in that here and elsewhere, the implication is that if the object of the prophesy repents, the punishment will not be carried out. This is the conditional part. To point out that a statement did not prove literally true, such as in Jonah, is an unfulfilled prophesy only if we ignore the conditional nature of the statement.

That is how I brought the idea of "conditional" into the conversation. How this translates into the question "is the future conditional" I don't know. Ultimately it is not, but this does not mean that God will not act in a given way based on what he knows will be the reaction of the person(s) acted upon. To that extent, I am sure there are "conditional" events out there, just as there were in Biblical times.

In the last Battle Royale Bob Referred to these conditional statements as Non- prophesies. Does that term work better for you?

 

[docrob57]

In the last Battle Royale Bob Referred to these conditional statements as Non- prophesies. Does that term work better for you?

Maybe, tell me more about it. I stopped reading the battle about halfway through.

 

[Delmar]

Maybe, tell me more about it. I stopped reading the battle about halfway through.

You are the one with the PHD. Please don't make me read it again so I can try to explain it to you! If I find the post and link it will that work for you?

 

[docrob57]

You are the one with the PHD. Please don't make me read it again so I can try to explain it to you! If I find the ost and link it will that work for you?

Yes wise guy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, let's step back because this is getting silly. My purpose in this thread, to which you have frequently referred, is to challenge the idea that God has ever made false or unfulfilled prophecies. An idea which I frankly consider blasphemous. Your argument is that God has done this because, as in the case of Jonah, God said that Nineveh would be destroyed and it was not. My argument is that this is an overly restrictive view of the prophesy in that here and elsewhere, the implication is that if the object of the prophesy repents, the punishment will not be carried out. This is the conditional part. To point out that a statement did not prove literally true, such as in Jonah, is an unfulfilled prophesy only if we ignore the conditional nature of the statement.

That is how I brought the idea of "conditional" into the conversation. How this translates into the question "is the future conditional" I don't know. Ultimately it is not, but this does not mean that God will not act in a given way based on what he knows will be the reaction of the person(s) acted upon. To that extent, I am sure there are "conditional" events out there, just as there were in Biblical times.

You are one of the best question avoiders I have ever met.

Let me summarize what you are trying to say and you can agree or disagree or clarify if you like OK?

I think you believe....
The future IS NOT conditional from God's perspective, yet it appears conditional from man's perspective. The future cannot actually be conditional in reality because the future is settled in God's mind.

 

[docrob57]

You are one of the best question avoiders I have ever met.

Let me summarize what you are trying to say and you can agree or disagree or clarify if you like OK?

I think you believe....
The future IS NOT conditional from God's perspective, yet it appears conditional from man's perspective. The future cannot actually be conditional in reality because the future is settled in God's mind.

I guess, but I like this "non-prophesy" idea that dear delmar brought up. Is the idea that statements such as that made through Jonah are really warnings and not meant to be taken as literal predictions? If so, I have no problem with that.

And thanks, perhaps I should run for public office!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I guess, but I like this "non-prophesy" idea that dear delmar brought up. Is the idea that statements such as that made through Jonah are really warnings and not meant to be taken as literal predictions? If so, I have no problem with that.

I don't think that the prophecy to Nineveh was a "non-prophecy" do you?

Let's look at what God told Jonah (the prophet) to tell Nineveh....

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Was this prophecy fulfilled? YES or NO?

 

[docrob57]

I don't think that the prophecy to Nineveh was a "non-prophecy" do you?

Let's look at what God told Jonah (the prophet) to tell Nineveh....

“Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”

Was this prophecy fulfilled? YES or NO?

I already answered that one, yes it was.

(picturing Knight tearing his hair out)

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I already answered that one, yes it was.

(picturing Knight tearing his hair out)

Nineveh was not overthrown in 40 days. Where you aware of that? :freak:

 

[docrob57]

Nineveh was not overthrown in 40 days. Where you aware of that? :freak:

I was, and I have already explained why this prophesy was fulfilled at least twice in this thread, and I really don't feel like doing it again.

 

[Delmar]

I guess, but I like this "non-prophesy" idea that dear delmar brought up. Is the idea that statements such as that made through Jonah are really warnings and not meant to be taken as literal predictions? If so, I have no problem with that.

And thanks, perhaps I should run for public office!

OK I found it in 7B of the battle although it appears that Bob may have introduced the idea earlier than that. It also seems as I glanced at it that Bob was not talking about the same thing we are discussing here. I am sorry if I muddied the water!

 

[docrob57]

OK I found it in 7B of the battle although it appears that Bob may have introduced the idea earlier than that. It also seems as I glanced at it that Bob was not talking about the same thing we are discussing here. I am sorry if I muddied the water!

No problem. The water is pretty muddy as it is. The problem with this whole discussion, in my never humble opinion, is that the OV side wants to force the "opponent" into answering questions on their terms. This is probably a good debate tactic, but it doesn't help lead to any understanding.

Knight asked "Was Nineveh destroyed?" No it wasn't, but (once again, and again, and again) this overlooks the conditional nature of the prophesy, which both he and Mr Enyart and others accept, when convenient. So I really don't accept the relevance of Knight's question. But to answer more completely.

Did Jonah's statement as recorded lliterally come true? No.
Does this mean the prophesy was unfulfilled? No, for reasons too many times stated.