ARCHIVE: Thread Theft (docrob and Knight)

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Delmar

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seekinganswers said:
The text does not say that Nineveh will be destroyed (not even out of the words of Jonah). It uses a word that can mean destroy, but in fact means turned or overturned.
That is interesting because the King of Nineveh sure took it to mean he was in serious trouble! Jonah, himself, seemed to think the word he was speaking meant to destroy! Otherwise he would not have been ticked off when God didn't destroy Nineveh.
The ending I was speaking about comes in the text itself (I was not asking about the ultimate end of Nineveh many decades later). The king dethrones himself, and the people (and the animals) dress up in sack cloth and ashes and pray to God for mercy. This is called repentance, and so the people were turned and Nineveh was overturned. Prophesy is not about telling the future. It is about the present actions of a people, and tells you what will come about if there is no repentance, however, the purpose of the prophesy if to incite people to repent. The people of Nineveh repent of their sins, and thus Nineveh is overthrown (not through fire and brimstone as many seem to think must be involved in prophesy and judgment). Neither prophecy nor judgment are exclusively tied to fire and brimstone. Judgment is simply the entrance of truth (the entrance of God) into the Creation so as to make quite clear what the natural order of things is.

Now if we look to Jonah in this, we find that Jonah was not free at all, but was a stubborn fool who ran from God, and wanted to think that he knew what was best for the city of Nineveh. He isn't free, but is a slave to his own pride, and to the pride of a people who have fogotten where they come from. He says at the very end that he knew God was merciful and would not be harsh with the Ninevites, and that is why he ran in the first place. The truly free people are the ones who when confronted with God they acknowledge God and obey (i.e. the sailors on the boat to Tarshish, and the Ninevites).

Peace,
Michael
 

seekinganswers

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deardelmar said:
That is interesting because the King of Nineveh sure took it to mean he was in serious trouble! Jonah, himself, seemed to think the word he was speaking meant to destroy! Otherwise he would not have been ticked off when God didn't destroy Nineveh.

If you're gonna use Jonah to understand that word, than you are a fool. Here are the words of the wise Jonah, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."

Jonah thinks it is better to die at the hands of a gracious God than it is to suffer at the might of a God who is harsh and cruel. He would rather follow the God who is threatened by evil than he is to follow the God who can be patient in the face of evil.

Nineveh was destroyed after forty days, it just wasn't destroyed in the way that Jonah or, apparently, you expected. God doesn't come in judgment simply to reign down fire and brimstone because people have a vendetta against their adversaries. If this were true, than God would have killed the humans in the garden (as God said he would; and don't give me the crap about how they did die, because a soul doesn't die, and a relationship with God is never lost) and God would have killed Cain for the crime he committed in cold blood against his brother Abel. God's judement does not come because God has to pay back what our enemies have taken from us. There is a reason why we hand vengance over to the LORD, because the LORD isn't after our vendettas, but is after true justice.

Now if you would actually read the story of Jonah, you would discover that even the most conservative translations (i.e. the NIV) do not translate the word as "destroy." It says in the NIV: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." In my translation found in the parallel English of the TANAK, it says "overthrown" as it does in the NRSV. Your translation of "destroyed" is not accepted by any of the major translations of the scriptures (even one as terrible as the NIV).

In the Hebrew the root of the word is haphach, which means to turn, to overturn, or to destroy. And in its form as found in this passage (nehpachet) it is in one of the derived stems of Hebrew, and I would guess is an imperfect (seeing how I am only in my third month of Hebrew, I am not an expert on the Hebrew, but I know some things). The Tanak English parallel is probably the most literal translation we have, and it uses "overthrown" as a translation.

So if you would like to bring to question my Hebrew abilities, go right ahead, but don't just say I'm wrong.

The word means more than to destroy. So when a king descends from his throne, and puts on rags, and covers himself in ashes, along with all of his people, then the city for all intents and purposes is overthrown. When the king is humbled, the king is defeated (and God didn't even have to come in God's might for the people of Nineveh to realize this; even the pagan sailors had to see God's strength against God's own to believe). God did come in God's might with Jonah, and Jonah is still as stubborn as he was when he left for Tarshish instead of Nineveh (and God doesn't seem to be any closer to killing Jonah).

If to you this story is all about Nineveh and how a people were saved by the skin of their teeth, this story has gone right over your head (in fact it had pleanty of clearance). The people of Nineveh are secondary to this story, for the story really concerns Jonah (and more importantly God). First we see Jonah as representative of a people who have forgotten how they became a people and for what purpose, i.e. a people delivered from Egypt by YHWH to a land in which they could dwell, that they might be a blessing to the nations. Jonah is the one being judged here (along with all of whom he represents, i.e. Israel), not Nineveh and the pagan sailors. Secondly, we see a God who from the very beginning (by implication of what Jonah says at the end) is gracious and merciful, and longs for the restoration of God's Creation. God at the end need not overturn Nineveh, for Nineveh has already overturned itself, and if you want to hear the words worth hearing (those that come from the king rather than Jonah) than they would be: "No man or beast -- of flock or heard -- shall taste anything! They shall not graze, and they shall not drink water! They shall be covered with sackcloth -- man and beast -- and shall cry mightily to God. Let everyone turn back from his evil ways and from the injustice of which he is guilty. Who knows but that God may turn and relent? He may turn back from His wrath, so that we do not perish."

These are the words of the true prophet, for Jonah has failed miserably from beginning to end. The prophets never declare, "Your destruction is certain and there is nothing you can do about it!!!!" (because prophets come from within the people being judged, not from without; and they declare their own doom as well as that of the peoples). Notice how Jonah sits outside the city to watch the "fireworks" at the end. Jonah is detatched from these people all throughout. Jonah never proclaims a true prophesy, for God doesn't give God's prophets to seal the doom that God brings (God simply comes and the truth is revealed; God doesn't need an entrance). Prophets are given because the future destruction is not certain. God gives warning that a people might repent and reveal the truth for themselves so that God does not have to. And this is exactly what Nineveh does (in almost an absurd fashion, for even the animals, here, are forced to dress in sackcloth and ashes, and to fast, and to cry out to their God, and to repent). Nineveh reveals the truth that even Jonah cannot seem to grasp, that God is God, and we as members of the Creation serve the one true God. And the truth of God lived out in the Creation is justice and mercy and righteousness. God turned from God's wrath (a overturning by means of destruction and doom) because the people has already been overturn by God (an overturning of repentance).

And if we hear the words of Jonah that he declares at the end, that he knew from the beginning that God was gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, then we have to ask, where was this revealed in the prophesy of Jonah? Jonah did not tell the truth, for Jonah knew a lot more than he revealed. God's judgment does not mean destruction. It means truth is coming in justice, and righteousness, and peace.

You are a fool to listen to Jonah, for you have thrown in your lot with a sad people, who have forgotten their place in this world, and who have forgotten their purpose. Jonah wasn't "ticked off" because God didn't destroy Nineveh, but because he knew from the beginning that this was exactly what God was going to do (read the words that come from the horse's mouth!).

Peace,
Michael
 

seekinganswers

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deardelmar said:
In time yes, In space no!... God did, in fact, bring space into being! Time, on the other hand, is merely a sequence of events. God actually does things and he does them in order! He created the Heavens and Earth before he created man. He kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden before Noah's flood. To experience events in order is not some sort of prison, even for God! It is simply reality!

You are a fool and an idolator if you think that god "experiences" the world like humans do. What you have done is set up time as god, and set the Creator and Creation within a greater reality, over which neither have control. If this is true, you are a fool for listening to the scriptures at all, for god is not LORD, nor is god sovereign. God is simply like us, and is not worthy of our alegiance. You're a fool for understanding god in the way that you do and equating that to the way YHWH is revealed in the scriptures.

God doesn't sit back in a recliner in heaven with popcorn in hand to see what happens on earth. This is the god of men, who must let the world go by them as they sit back and watch, or try to take it by force. This is the god of sports, who shows power through brute force and does it all for a good show.

Before there was time, there was God. You are locked into a horrible translation, which would translate en arche as "in the beginning" (and, yes, that is pretty much all of the translations, and if they are good, they will admit their folly in a footnote). The Hebrew and the Greek do not relate to time at his point, but to preminence, for arche signifies head or power or ruler, not simply beginning. God is the one who surrounds the Creation and moves the Creation and completes the Creation, not time. The scriptures identify God as the arche and telos, not time. So in God both time and space consist, and, yes, the entire Creation.

If you don't understand my words, you don't understand the words of Paul to the Athenians put forth in Acts. That is where Paul states, "For 'In God we live and move and have our being.'" (Acts 17:28) God takes this phrase from the Greeks, and reinterprets it, for it originally had a pantheistic sense (i.e. that God was in the Creation). Instead, Paul states that the Creation is in God, so that God is other and transcendent, but God is also immanent, as God pervades all of the Creation. We are found in God, not God in us.

Your understanding of time is so funny, because the early Jews could care less about time as you have talked about it. In chapter 1 humans are created (and yes it is a singular noun that is understood in a comprehensive sense, not as a single man named Adam, but as humanity which includes males and females [Gen. 1:27]). And already here at the beginning of Genesis we see the end, so that in God all come together. What we experience as successive events are united in God.

And then after giving the whole story, the Jews dive back into it again, and rearrange the elements, so that in chapter two humanity is created before the plants and before the animals. Now tell me, oh wise one, what chronology are the Jews understanding here, because when they say that humans are the last thing created in Genesis 1, what do they mean when humans are created before plants and animals in the second chapter? Your understanding of time is not God's. God sees a thousand years as a day (and if you are at all familiar with the Hebrew understanding of a thousand, or even a Hebrew understanding of a thousand while using the Greek, than you know that a thousand just means a bunch, because a thousand signifies tribe, and nation, as well). A thousand years means an age. The Jews don't count like you do. They go 999, a bunch. And then they say, 1 bunch, 2 bunches, ..., 99 bunches, a hoard!!! They aren't exactly concerned with accuracy, because acuracy did not come with ease in this time, and I doubt they had the patience to acurately account for people in the same way that an emperor does, because the number of people for an emperor means how much tax he is able to exact, and it doesn't mean that for the Jews.

If you want to place god in time, then you worship an idol and have divorced yourself from the God that is revealed in the scriptures and that is revealed in Christ (in whom both the aarche and the telos are wrapped up (beginning and end) so that both Christ and God stand outside of time and time unfolds with God, not god within time.

Peace,
Michael
 

Nathon Detroit

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docrob57 said:
Not necessarily. My only contention is that God must have "perfect exhaustive foreknowledge" if He is God.
Why?

Which I think we would both beleive that He is. I do not beleive that God changes His mind, though I do know the Bible speaks as if He does at times. I believe that the Bible puts things that way for purposes of human understanding, not because God actually changes His mind.
The Bible is filled with stories that describe a conditional future.

The Bible is filled with stories of God displaying He knows everything knowable.

The Bible is filled with stories of God knowing our intentions.

The Bible does not describe or define God as having exhaustive foreknowledge.

Jer 18 in no way suggests that God changes His mind. I beleive the open view contention that some prophecies are false seriously undermines God. Not intentionally, of course, but it seems to be an attempt to "bring God down to our level."
On the contrary... it is us that are flawed! God simply reacts to our flaws in a perfect and majestic way.

As to the settled nature of the future I am unclear. If not settled, the extent to which it is open must be bounded because I do believe that Christ will return, and I assume you beleive this as well.
I hate to do this but I must hold your feet to the fire.... I asked you if you believed in a conditional future and you haven't answered.

Is the future conditional for God? (in any way whatsoever)
 

Nathon Detroit

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seekinganswers said:
The god of Knight is not the Christian God, for the god of Knight is not the God in whom "we live and move and have our being."

Peace,
Michael
Micahel I am going to ignore you.

I do not appreciate your assertion that my God is not the God of the Bible.
 

seekinganswers

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Knight said:
Micahel I am going to ignore you.

I do not appreciate your assertion that my God is not the God of the Bible.

The god who is within time and who interacts with the Creation no differently than what is in the Creation is not the God of the scriptures, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. You don't have to appreciate my assertion, you have already divorced yourself from the scriptures in thinking that your understanding of god is God at all.

Prophesy is not forcasting or fortune telling (as if God were inside time just waiting for time to unfold). Prophesy is the proclamation of God's coming, so that time is brought to completion in the perfection of God's Creation. Time does not encompass God and Creation, but is held within God, in whom the arche and the telos come together, alpha and omega, first and last, beginning and end. God is not inside time; God encompasses time and space and, in fact, the entire Creation. This is the God that Paul proclaims in Acts 17:28, the God "in whom we live and move and have our being".

I can assure you, the many in Israel who heard the message of the prophets would have said the same as you have just now. They thought their understanding of god was God, but, in fact, their understanding of god was shown for what it was, nothing!

Peace,
Michael
 

Delmar

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seekinganswers said:
If you're gonna use Jonah to understand that word, than you are a fool. Here are the words of the wise Jonah, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."

Jonah thinks it is better to die at the hands of a gracious God than it is to suffer at the might of a God who is harsh and cruel. He would rather follow the God who is threatened by evil than he is to follow the God who can be patient in the face of evil.

Nineveh was destroyed after forty days, it just wasn't destroyed in the way that Jonah or, apparently, you expected. God doesn't come in judgment simply to reign down fire and brimstone because people have a vendetta against their adversaries. If this were true, than God would have killed the humans in the garden (as God said he would; and don't give me the crap about how they did die, because a soul doesn't die, and a relationship with God is never lost) and God would have killed Cain for the crime he committed in cold blood against his brother Abel. God's judement does not come because God has to pay back what our enemies have taken from us. There is a reason why we hand vengance over to the LORD, because the LORD isn't after our vendettas, but is after true justice.

Now if you would actually read the story of Jonah, you would discover that even the most conservative translations (i.e. the NIV) do not translate the word as "destroy." It says in the NIV: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." In my translation found in the parallel English of the TANAK, it says "overthrown" as it does in the NRSV. Your translation of "destroyed" is not accepted by any of the major translations of the scriptures (even one as terrible as the NIV).

In the Hebrew the root of the word is haphach, which means to turn, to overturn, or to destroy. And in its form as found in this passage (nehpachet) it is in one of the derived stems of Hebrew, and I would guess is an imperfect (seeing how I am only in my third month of Hebrew, I am not an expert on the Hebrew, but I know some things). The Tanak English parallel is probably the most literal translation we have, and it uses "overthrown" as a translation.

So if you would like to bring to question my Hebrew abilities, go right ahead, but don't just say I'm wrong.

The word means more than to destroy. So when a king descends from his throne, and puts on rags, and covers himself in ashes, along with all of his people, then the city for all intents and purposes is overthrown. When the king is humbled, the king is defeated (and God didn't even have to come in God's might for the people of Nineveh to realize this; even the pagan sailors had to see God's strength against God's own to believe). God did come in God's might with Jonah, and Jonah is still as stubborn as he was when he left for Tarshish instead of Nineveh (and God doesn't seem to be any closer to killing Jonah).

If to you this story is all about Nineveh and how a people were saved by the skin of their teeth, this story has gone right over your head (in fact it had pleanty of clearance). The people of Nineveh are secondary to this story, for the story really concerns Jonah (and more importantly God). First we see Jonah as representative of a people who have forgotten how they became a people and for what purpose, i.e. a people delivered from Egypt by YHWH to a land in which they could dwell, that they might be a blessing to the nations. Jonah is the one being judged here (along with all of whom he represents, i.e. Israel), not Nineveh and the pagan sailors. Secondly, we see a God who from the very beginning (by implication of what Jonah says at the end) is gracious and merciful, and longs for the restoration of God's Creation. God at the end need not overturn Nineveh, for Nineveh has already overturned itself, and if you want to hear the words worth hearing (those that come from the king rather than Jonah) than they would be: "No man or beast -- of flock or heard -- shall taste anything! They shall not graze, and they shall not drink water! They shall be covered with sackcloth -- man and beast -- and shall cry mightily to God. Let everyone turn back from his evil ways and from the injustice of which he is guilty. Who knows but that God may turn and relent? He may turn back from His wrath, so that we do not perish."

These are the words of the true prophet, for Jonah has failed miserably from beginning to end. The prophets never declare, "Your destruction is certain and there is nothing you can do about it!!!!" (because prophets come from within the people being judged, not from without; and they declare their own doom as well as that of the peoples). Notice how Jonah sits outside the city to watch the "fireworks" at the end. Jonah is detatched from these people all throughout. Jonah never proclaims a true prophesy, for God doesn't give God's prophets to seal the doom that God brings (God simply comes and the truth is revealed; God doesn't need an entrance). Prophets are given because the future destruction is not certain. God gives warning that a people might repent and reveal the truth for themselves so that God does not have to. And this is exactly what Nineveh does (in almost an absurd fashion, for even the animals, here, are forced to dress in sackcloth and ashes, and to fast, and to cry out to their God, and to repent). Nineveh reveals the truth that even Jonah cannot seem to grasp, that God is God, and we as members of the Creation serve the one true God. And the truth of God lived out in the Creation is justice and mercy and righteousness. God turned from God's wrath (a overturning by means of destruction and doom) because the people has already been overturn by God (an overturning of repentance).

And if we hear the words of Jonah that he declares at the end, that he knew from the beginning that God was gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, then we have to ask, where was this revealed in the prophesy of Jonah? Jonah did not tell the truth, for Jonah knew a lot more than he revealed. God's judgment does not mean destruction. It means truth is coming in justice, and righteousness, and peace.

You are a fool to listen to Jonah, for you have thrown in your lot with a sad people, who have forgotten their place in this world, and who have forgotten their purpose. Jonah wasn't "ticked off" because God didn't destroy Nineveh, but because he knew from the beginning that this was exactly what God was going to do (read the words that come from the horse's mouth!).

Peace,
Michael
All that because I implied that Jonah knew the translation of the words that came out of his own mouth!

By the way. I'll bet you a shinny new dime that there won't be 3 people who actually take the time to read all that! No I take that back. It would really surprise me if anyone takes the time to read the whole thing.
 
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seekinganswers

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deardelmar said:
All that because I implied that Jonah knew the translation of the words that came out of his own mouth!

Do you even realize how ignorant a statement you have just made? "Jonah knew the translation of the words that came out of his own mouth!" ???? And I suppose you know the translation of what you just said in Hindi? Jonah spoke at least one language, but most definitely did not speak English, nor would he have known which English interpretation of his words was best. I spoke out of the Hebrew and the way in which the word is used in various ways throughout the Hebrew text, which you have continued to ignore, showing your ignorance. Look at the word horn in English, that cannot be locked into a one to one corrospandance to another language. Horn can mean the object protruding from an animal's head, it can signify the object used to produce an annoying sound in the front of cars, it can also signify an object that holds fruit that is sentimentally attatched to a North American Celebration that ushers us into the orgy of spending in preparation for another celebration that has been coopted by Santa Claus, the man who gets kids whatever they want.

Those who do not understand the English language would have no idea whatsoever how to use the nuance of the language. Translations are not translations at all, because they interpret, and thus distort the text always. Anyone who thinks they understand something from the Bible who is locked into a North American English context will be like the Pumpkin King in the "Nightmare Before Christmas." They will think they understand, when, in fact, they have simply fit the story into their own way of life.

By the way. I'll bet you a shinny new dime that there won't be 3 people who actually take the time to read all that! No I take that back. It would really surprise me if anyone takes the time to read the whole thing.

And I'll give you a penny for how much I really care. Do you think I come on this thread to be liked? It sharpens me, because there are some people actually worth listening to (those who are truly Christian). You can throw what I say away, but you throw away more than what I say, i.e. the entire Christian tradition that came before the "Enlightenment." You are an idolator, who actually believes that what he thinks about god is God.

Peace,
Michael
 

Mr. 5020

New member
seekinganswers said:
And I suppose this is the 11th commandment, maybe an early draft of God's ten commandments before he had spell-check?
How is that a commandment? That's no more a commandment than "Jacob, from now on thou shalt be known as Israel."
 

Johnny

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1200 words is apparently beyond the attention span of many here. Thank you for your insightful posts. Although you will likely continue to be subjected to the childish retorts of many here, your posts are a much needed breeze of fresh air in a place that has grown stagnant with the hardened hearts and minds of those who do not wish to hear. Do not be discouraged, Michael!
 

Delmar

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Johnny said:
1200 words is apparently beyond the attention span of many here. Thank you for your insightful posts. Although you will likely continue to be subjected to the childish retorts of many here, your posts are a much needed breeze of fresh air in a place that has grown stagnant with the hardened hearts and minds of those who do not wish to hear. Do not be discouraged, Michael!
You refer to that angry rant as a breath of fresh air?
 
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Johnny

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You refer to that angry rant as a breath of fresh air?
I was referring to Michael's posts in a more general sense. Nonetheless, yes, I rather liked his post. I am inclined to believe that you actually did read his post but couldn't muster up a response other than your comment about the attention span of your peers. I find the tactic of casting negative light on an argument with petty side-comments for lack of an intellectual response reminiscent of my early childhood.
 

Delmar

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Johnny said:
I was referring to Michael's posts in a more general sense. Nonetheless, yes, I rather liked his post. I am inclined to believe that you actually did read his post but couldn't muster up a response other than your comment about the attention span of your peers. I find the tactic of casting negative light on an argument with petty side-comments for lack of an intellectual response reminiscent of my early childhood.
Good one!
 

Charity

New member
Did Jonah say that he new God would not destroy the men of Nineveh. Jonah 4; 1,5
and yet asked him to prophey that he would destoy them in 40 days
It would be not a wounder that Jonah ran knowing that if any prophet claimed to speack from God and if prophesy failed to happen then he should be put to death.
He feared their respnse.
After delivering the messaege he sat out side the city waiting to see if the men of niniveh would be distroyed by God,
and suffered so much that he desired that God would take his life now.
God was faithfull and they new and repented of evil, and did not seek to revenge Jonah.

charity
 

Lighthouse

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Charity said:
Did Jonah say that he new God would not destroy the men of Nineveh. Jonah 4; 1,5
and yet asked him to prophey that he would destoy them in 40 days
It would be not a wounder that Jonah ran knowing that if any prophet claimed to speack from God and if prophesy failed to happen then he should be put to death.
He feared their respnse.
After delivering the messaege he sat out side the city waiting to see if the men of niniveh would be distroyed by God,
and suffered so much that he desired that God would take his life now.
God was faithfull and they new and repented of evil, and did not seek to revenge Jonah.

charity
I just read Jonah chapter 4, and I can't find any indication, not even in verses 1 or 5.:nono: And so I scanned the rest of Jonah, and nothing.:nono:
 

Charity

New member
Hi lighhouse
Jonah 3 .10
God rpents of the Evil he was going to do,
meaning they were not going to be destroyed, so how did Jonah feel and look after saying in 40 days destruction would happen to these men,
either a fraud, or they may see the purpose of God
He still dose not now in ch 4 .1 the out come but knows GOD has mercy

And inpleys to his first flee by saying in verse CH 4 . 2
O lord was this not my say yet when i was in my own country?Therefore i fleed to Taarshish.for i knew you art a gracious God slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of evil,
This was Jonahs mind on fleeing the reqest of God,

charity
 

Lighthouse

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Charity said:
Hi lighhouse
Jonah 3 .10
God rpents of the Evil he was going to do,
meaning they were not going to be destroyed, so how did Jonah feel and look after saying in 40 days destruction would happen to these men,
either a fraud, or they may see the purpose of God
He still dose not now in ch 4 .1 the out come but knows GOD has mercy

And inpleys to his first flee by saying in verse CH 4 . 2
O lord was this not my say yet when i was in my own country?Therefore i fleed to Taarshish.for i knew you art a gracious God slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of evil,
This was Jonahs mind on fleeing the reqest of God,

charity
You forgot the t in my screenname.

Now, what I meant was that I found no indication that Jonah knew God wasn't going to destroy Nineveh, before they repented.

And I also don't see any reason for Nineveh to doubt that Jonah's meassage was truly from God, since it didn't happen. It served to show that God is true to His word, because He had previously stated that if He determined to destroy a place for its wickedness, and they repented when He proclaimed His plan to destroy them, that He would repent of His plan and let them be.
 
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