ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[godrulz]

What do you believe it means when Paul says we aren't "under the law"?

It does not mean that we are antinomianists who use license and grace as an excuse to persist in grievous sin.

The Law condemns us as sinners in need of a Savior.

It also has a positive aspect (moral vs ceremonial). Psalm 119 shows the delight of the Law of God. Paul also said the Law was good, not inherently bad. It is the misuse or misapplication of the law in legalism that is the problem. Jesus corrected the Pharisee's wrong understanding of God's holy law. He did not negate its validity for society (thou shalt not murder) and the believer who lives for the Lawgiver instead of lawlessness (sin and selfishness). Those who love God with their whole being will be holy as He is holy. They will live practically and consistently with the Law of love that is based on His good, wise, and unchanging character.

It is inherently wrong to murder (sanctity of life) or to adulterate (sanctity of marriage). These creation mandates were before the Law, yet also incorporated into the Law that is now written on our hearts instead of stone tablets. Jesus (gospels) and Paul (Ephesians) reiterated the principles of the Law. Jesus fulfilled the law. He did not relegate it to the ash heaps of history. Love, not legalism or license, is the proper expression of the law of God.

This has nothing to do with self-righteousness or works. It is all done as the Most Holy God lives in and through us by the Spirit of truth who does not act contrary to God's revelation, even in His perfect law (Ps. 119).

An unbeliever should dread the condemning Law of God. A believer should delight in His law of love and liberty in Christ.

 

[Sozo]

It does not mean that we are antinomianists who use license and grace as an excuse to persist in grievous sin.

I don't know why you toss that word around like you do, because you lack total understanding of it's meaning.

No one on this site has ever hinted at, or taught that grace is a license to sin.

 

[Sozo]

Without holiness, no one will see the Lord.

Are you holy, godrulz? If so, based on what?

 

[godrulz]

I don't know why you toss that word around like you do, because you lack total understanding of it's meaning.

No one on this site has ever hinted at, or taught that grace is a license to sin.

I agree we are on the same page, but it seems to be the logical conclusion of a view that says Christians cannot sin (even when it is obvious that some do) or that future sins are automatically forgiven, even while persisted in (the theory differs from the reality).

I am suggesting a wrong assumption will lead to the wrong, indefensible conclusion. Grace is not cheap, not irresistible, and not without conditions in its application (unless universalism or antinomianism are true, which they are not).

 

[godrulz]

Are you holy, godrulz? If so, based on what?

I am holy and set apart as holy positionally because I am in the One who is Holy, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is based on His life, death, person, and finished work. My righteousness, so-called, is as filthy rags, apart from Christ. Justification sets us apart as holy unto the Lord and for His service. In this sense, justification and sanctification are concurrent (InstantaneouS).

The other motif relating to sanctification in the NT is that there is a ProgressivE, practical outworking of His life, holiness, and character in our lives (fruit of the Spirit vs deeds of the flesh in Gal. 5). We are to grow (not one time thing) in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18), not just claim sinless perfectionism with a persistence in fleshly living. Loving obedience reflects a practical outflowing of the life of Christ in us as we yield and obey (Rom. 6-8). Holiness is not divorced from our actual situation (not all believers are equally mature, obedient as evidenced by God's discipline in those whom He loves ..Hebrews 12:10 so we can actually share in His holiness; 12:14 without holiness we will not see the Lord...actual vs theoretical). 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:2; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:4-8...note the progressive vs instantaneous nature here, etc.

The Corinthians were set-apart holy saints in Christ despite not being 'perfect', not walking in their high calling, and even living openly in sin (some were dying in judgment).

Few believers deny the instantaneous, positional aspect, nor do they deny the practical, progressive outworking of it. We do well to emphasize both. Because I talk about the latter without rejecting the former to bring balance to your one-side-of-the-coin view, myself and hundreds of millions of other Jesus-loving Christians are going to hell?!

Jesus saves, not perfect understanding of the Godward/manward nature of sanctification and practical Christian living that makes us actually different from the world...inwardly and outwardly.

 

[Sozo]

... it seems to be the logical conclusion of a view that says Christians cannot sin (even when it is obvious that some do) or that future sins are automatically forgiven, even while persisted in (the theory differs from the reality).

It's not a logical conclusion, godrulz. You don't know what an antinomian is. You don't understand what it means to be free from sin. You don't know what a Christian is. And you don't know what salvation is.

Your whole life is a false theological construct. You are lost in your own world that has no resemblance to biblical Christianity or faith in Christ.

I am suggesting a wrong assumption will lead to the wrong, indefensible conclusion.

Then stop making them.

Grace is not cheap

No, it's not. It's free.

Grace is not without conditions in its application

Apparently, you don't know the meaning of "grace" either.

 

[Sozo]

I am holy and set apart as holy positionally because I am in the One who is Holy, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is based on His life, death, person, and finished work. My righteousness, so-called, is as filthy rags, apart from Christ. Justification sets us apart as holy unto the Lord and for His service. In this sense, justification and sanctification are concurrent (InstantaneouS).

The other motif relating to sanctification in the NT is that there is a ProgressivE, practical outworking of His life, holiness, and character in our lives (fruit of the Spirit vs deeds of the flesh in Gal. 5). We are to grow (not one time thing) in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18), not just claim sinless perfectionism with a persistence in fleshly living. Loving obedience reflects a practical outflowing of the life of Christ in us as we yield and obey (Rom. 6-8). Holiness is not divorced from our actual situation (not all believers are equally mature, obedient as evidenced by God's discipline in those whom He loves ..Hebrews 12:10 so we can actually share in His holiness; 12:14 without holiness we will not see the Lord...actual vs theoretical). 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:2; I Peter 1:13-16; 2 Peter 1:4-8...note the progressive vs instantaneous nature here, etc.

The Corinthians were set-apart holy saints in Christ despite not being 'perfect', not walking in their high calling, and even living openly in sin (some were dying in judgment).

Few believers deny the instantaneous, positional aspect, nor do they deny the practical, progressive outworking of it. We do well to emphasize both. Because I talk about the latter without rejecting the former to bring balance to your one-side-of-the-coin view, myself and hundreds of millions of other Jesus-loving Christians are going to hell?!

Jesus saves, not perfect understanding of the Godward/manward nature of sanctification and practical Christian living that makes us actually different from the world...inwardly and outwardly.

You're a moron. You can't even answer a simple question.

Are you holy or not?

Yes or no?

 

[kmoney]

It does not mean that we are antinomianists who use license and grace as an excuse to persist in grievous sin.

That was basically my next question. I almost started another thread but I guess I'll start here....

What is a "license to sin"?

 

[kmoney]

Christ will present us as holy...

Col 1:21 And you then being alienated and hostile in your mind by evil works, but now He reconciled
Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh, through death, to present you holy and without blemish and irreproachable before Him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

 

[Sozo]

Christ will present us as holy...

Col 1:21 And you then being alienated and hostile in your mind by evil works, but now He reconciled
Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh, through death, to present you holy and without blemish and irreproachable before Him,
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

Why are we holy, when Christ "presents us"?

 

[kmoney]

It means that we are under grace. It's a completely different system. We have been transferred from one domain into another. We are no longer in darkness, but in the light.

A Christian does not move around from one domain into the other. For him, the old is gone. Some people would like you to believe that your actions move you in and out of light, in and out of fellowship, in and out of the Law, or in and out of Christ.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. We no longer belong to that law in any way, shape or form. We no longer belong to that system where the Law reveals sin, which proves our death.

When I read Romans 6 (where that phrase is), not being under the law seems to be more about how we present ourselves, as members of righteousness or sin.

 

[kmoney]

Why are we holy, when Christ "presents us"?

We're holy because Christ reconciled us.

 

[Sozo]

When I read Romans 6 (where that phrase is), not being under the law seems to be more about how we present ourselves, as members of righteousness or sin.

Does it also tell you how someone is a member of righteousness or sin?

 

[Sozo]

We're holy because Christ reconciled us.

That's it?

God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself.

Is the whole world holy?

 

[kmoney]

Does it also tell you how someone is a member of righteousness or sin?

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

 

[kmoney]

That's it?

God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself.

Is the whole world holy?

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

 

[Sozo]

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

kmoney, do you have somewhere you are going with this?

When I asked you what makes us holy, you replied...

We're holy because Christ reconciled us.

Now, you are adding to what makes us holy is...

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister,

Which is it?

 

[Sozo]

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

Do you know what that means, or are you trying to imitate Knight?

 

[kmoney]

kmoney, do you have somewhere you are going with this?

Not really. You and godrulz were talking about being holy so I quoted that scripture.

Which is it?

Does it have to be one or the other?

 

[kmoney]

Do you know what that means, or are you trying to imitate Knight?

Imitate Knight?

It says we're slaves to whom we present ourselves.