ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[tetelestai]

You are truly naive, if you think emotions are always controlled by the free will.

Have you ever read about Job?

 

[tetelestai]

Except that this isn't necessary. Your case is a joke. You've exposed yourself as someone who denies God's omnipotence.

I'll post again, pay attention to the bolded part.

God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. The only thing outside of God's control is man's free will.

I believe God is omnipotent, but God cannot make someone believe in Jesus Christ. God can influence, hit them over the head, shout, etc, but God cannot make them choose to believe. This doesn't take away from God's omnipotence, it makes God a respector of man's free volition, and magnifies God's righteousness.

You deny God's perfect omniscience.

 

[themuzicman]

I'll post again, pay attention to the bolded part.

God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. The only thing outside of God's control is man's free will.

I believe God is omnipotent, but God cannot make someone believe in Jesus Christ. God can influence, hit them over the head, shout, etc, but God cannot make them choose to believe. This doesn't take away from God's omnipotence, it makes God a respector of man's free volition, and magnifies God's righteousness.

And yet you claim that God couldn't make someone mad. LOL

You deny God's perfect omniscience.

I believe that God created a logically consistent creation, and it is logically inconsistent to say that God created free will agents, but that the decisions of those free will agents are knowable before they are taken.

Perfect omniscience is logically consistent omniscience.

Muz

 

[Lon]

Not sure how this is strictly an OVT nightmare. There is still significant discussion as to whether this prophecy was fulfilled as written or not.

Either way, the ability to influence over kings to go to war is well within God's ability, as is knowledge of all possible futures. It is quite probable that, given the present circumstance, and God's omnipotence and wisdom, this is all easily brought about by God for His purpose without EDF.

To say this requires EDF to accomplish is nothing more than a denial of God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

Muz

All that had to happen, was that we needed to see the flaws and holes. I sure hope one or several of us write the end result down this time so OV in the future is squelched before it starts. I'm not saying it is a big deal persay, I think one can be OV and a believer (though a confused one and leaning on 'own understanding.'

I think it good for exercising brain matter, but ultimately I think these are the reasons Open Theism has been rejected through the centuries.

To say this is not DF (we can argue Exhaustive a different day) is a stretch as Telest says because God even gives the emotions in the prediction. Can God make somebody mad? Sure, but as the text is long, we are talking about incredible micromanaging toward Hyper-Calvinism. You are asserting the very thing OV is so adamantly against.

Forgive me, but OV doesn't make any logical sense in explaining this text. DF is certainly apparent. Whatever means, whether magical/mysterious, or Hyper-micromangagement, I think OV has antimony here that isn't looking straight to me.
To assume the prophecy did not come to pass would mean Daniel was a false prophet and he'd have to be killed and/or rejected. Your OV blinders are firmly in place. I love that you are open to analyzing your glasses along with me when called to do so. Please do so here?

Blessings,

Lon

 

[themuzicman]

All that had to happen, was that we needed to see the flaws and holes. I sure hope one or several of us write the end result down this time so OV in the future is squelched before it starts. I'm not saying it is a big deal persay, I think one can be OV and a believer (though a confused one and leaning on 'own understanding.'

An OVT would say that Augustine and Calvin have done the same.

I think it good for exercising brain matter, but ultimately I think these are the reasons Open Theism has been rejected through the centuries.

To be honest, it hasn't been rejected through the centuries. Through the centuries, and even until today, the nature of God's knowledge and foreknowledge has been a subject of debate. It remains unresolved. Augustine's influence is certainly felt in the discussion, and the church has leaned strongly towards some kind of definite foreknowledge, but the debate remains, nonetheless. Nothing has been "rejected."

To say this is not DF (we can argue Exhaustive a different day) is a stretch as Telest says because God even gives the emotions in the prediction. Can God make somebody mad? Sure, but as the text is long, we are talking about incredible micromanaging toward Hyper-Calvinism. You are asserting the very thing OV is so adamantly against.

Not at all. As I've already pointed out, one doesn't need to deny free will to make someone made.

And, as Tele and S2P have pointed out, this is about the only detail that might need explaining. The rest is pretty general.

Forgive me, but OV doesn't make any logical sense in explaining this text. DF is certainly apparent. Whatever means, whether magical/mysterious, or Hyper-micromangagement, I think OV has antimony here that isn't looking straight to me.

Why is hyper-micromanagement necessary, when only a general description is given?

To assume the prophecy did not come to pass would mean Daniel was a false prophet and he'd have to be killed and/or rejected.

I didn't say that I believed it. I just know that those who know Daniel 11 well, and embrace inerrancy don't bring it up, because this is a potential problem text for inerrancy folks (including me.)

Your OV blinders are firmly in place. I love that you are open to analyzing your glasses along with me when called to do so. Please do so here?

Again, I think you're placing an unnecessary standard for this text. Two ardent opponents scoured this prophecy, and only came up with one detail that is specific, and I've already shown how this is accomplished (and you've acknowledged that this is true) without violating the free will.

Muz

 

[DFT_Dave]

Here are a few examples of "traditional Jews", who petitioned the Lord, as if they believed, that the future was not settled in advance. Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Kin. 20:6; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19; Isa. 38:5

:thumb: Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

And yet again, he 'talked' to an elder. Who was that man? I really want to know. Your answer will influence further discussion here and help me assess what you are saying about this particular. Is it a trap? Yes of a sort, but I'll explain it so you are not in the dark and can walk freely into it or choose not to reply:

Whatever John experienced, we see an interaction that is either fabricated or actual. Is the man he talked to a real person in the future or is he simply a made up phantom for the vision to take place and have meaning?

Your supposition, that God cannot see future actions of men nor transport John to an actual future, clouds a meaningful assessment of this scripture between us. I really want to know what would allow OV to assert their position here against my understanding of the text. It doesn't look like a logical interpretation to me at this point.

So there you have it, I've spelled what could become entrapping so that you will not be. I don't hold any reserve here. I want you to understand both the problem and the questions I'm asking.

Give me a particular verse or verses. The great thing about visions is they are very flexible and don't have to conform to the reality they are illustrating.

--Dave

 

[Nang]

:thumb: Dave

Mediatorship and ignorance of the future, does not provide any man foundation to claim God does not know, control, and settle the future.

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

It's impossible for us to have a future existence for God to see if he created us to be finite and can only exist "moment by moment".

Even if God could exist through all "times" they would be his "times" not our "times", his eternity not our eternity because we do not have one.

--Dave

 

[Nang]

It's impossible for us to have a future existence for God to see if he created us to be finite and can only exist "moment by moment".

You ignore the truth that God created all things with a purpose. That purpose being, His Son would inherit a heavenly kingdom inhabited by redeemed creatures and humanity.

God knows the future of His children that have been spiritually adopted to share in Christ's future and heavenly inheritance.

Knowledge of this future, purposed and provided by God for His elect, is realized by the sons of God through faith in the promises of God, that detail this future kingdom.

Even if God could exist through all "times" they would be his "times" not our "times", his eternity not our eternity because we do not have one.

The redeemed sons of God; the believers in the Christ of God, are promised everlasting life ("eternity") with and in the Son. That is what the doctrine of divine election is all about. Ephesians 1:3-14.

 

[DFT_Dave]

You ignore the truth that God created all things with a purpose. That purpose being, His Son would inherit a heavenly kingdom inhabited by redeemed creatures and humanity.

God knows the future of His children that have been spiritually adopted to share in Christ's future and heavenly inheritance.

Knowledge of this future, purposed and provided by God for His elect, is realized by the sons of God through faith in the promises of God, that detail this future kingdom.

The redeemed sons of God; the believers in the Christ of God, are promised everlasting life ("eternity") with and in the Son. That is what the doctrine of divine election is all about. Ephesians 1:3-14.

God knows that those who believe in Christ will be given eternal life but God does not know who those believers will be until they believe.

God wants us to be in Christ and to be holy, but it's up to us if we will accept his offer.

--Dave

 

[eveningsky339]

Not sure how this is strictly an OVT nightmare. There is still significant discussion as to whether this prophecy was fulfilled as written or not.

The inherent problem for OVers here is that if this prophecy was not fulfilled, then God was wrong. If God can make mistakes, the implications are positively horrifying.

 

[Nang]

God knows that those who believe in Christ will be given eternal life but God does not know who those believers will be until they believe.

What happens then? Are the futures of these believers settled, guaranteed, and certain? Does not God have a purpose and plan for all Christians? Does not God know His own purposes, promises, and plans for His children? Did the cross work and victory over death accomplished by Jesus Christ not settle their eternal fate?

Or is God as unknowing of what lies ahead for them as well as He supposedly is without knowledge of the fates of all the unbelievers? If God has not knowledge or control over everyone's ultimate destinies, how certain is justice, punishment for sins, and hell? (Or do you deny Judgement Day, too?)

What value was the cross work of Jesus Christ, if He did not purchase a certain salvation and resurrection for His own? What kind of Savior, is an unknowing, powerless, ignorant Savior? What kind of King does not know and determine who will inhabit His kingdom?

Of course your remarks above contradict the teachings of Christ who taught of divine and irresistible drawing and calling of the elect to Himself, by God. (John 6:39; 44) Sinners are saved according to the will of God (John 5:21) and not according to their own corrupted wills.


Nang

 

[godrulz]

Yes, I agree, it is an OV'er's nightmare.

Especially verse 11, here Daniel is describing someone’s future emotion (enraged). How could God know the future emotions of someone without EDF?

Dan 11:11 "Then the king of the south will be enraged and will march out to fight against the king of the north, who will also muster a large army, but that army will be delivered into his hand.

Given profound knowledge of human psychology, it is not hard to predict a person will be enraged given circumstances that God could arrange. People can provoke us, so God could find a way (circ., man, Satan, God) to produce a specific reaction in specific circumstances. If the person was named and other details with dates and times given, it would make more of a case for EDF. As it is, it is still fairly generic and imaginable given God's past and present knowledge and ability to orchestrate things.

 

[godrulz]

Not sure how this is strictly an OVT nightmare. There is still significant discussion as to whether this prophecy was fulfilled as written or not.

Either way, the ability to influence over kings to go to war is well within God's ability, as is knowledge of all possible futures. It is quite probable that, given the present circumstance, and God's omnipotence and wisdom, this is all easily brought about by God for His purpose without EDF.

To say this requires EDF to accomplish is nothing more than a denial of God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

Muz

Ability vs foreknowledge. They underestimate God's ability to intervene as necessary and how predictable somethings are in light of exhaustive past/present knowledge of men and circumstances.

If there was a verse that predicted the wording of all of my posts from centuries ago by way of prophecy, then I would either deny my free will or affirm EDF.

 

[godrulz]

On the previous page, I copied traditional views of God from Judaism.com. They are correct on God’s omnipotence


God is a respecter of man’s free will. God does not force obedience, God does not coerce.

Enragement is an emotion, manifested, or controlled by man’s free will. God cannot force someone to become enraged, nor can God keep someone from becoming enraged. Either would be a violation of man’s free will by God. The perfect righteousness, justice, love, etc of God cannot violate man’s free will.

For example, if I bump John Doe standing in line, he may become enraged and call me a name. If I bump someone else in the same line, they may themselves say they are sorry, and have no negative emotion. Therefore, God cannot "influence" an emotion, and respect our free wills at the same time.

The only way God can know the future emotions of an individual is EDF. God is omnisciencent.

It is a moot point whether the prophecy happened or has yet to happen. Either way God, through prophecy, is stating ahead of time what someone’s emotions will be.

EDF is God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

Don't confuse omniscience and foreknowledge. OVTs affirm omniscience because He truly knows all that is logically possible to know (the future is not yet and EDF is logically incompatible with free will). It denies exhaustive foreknowledge because the future is partially unsettled/open (the issue is the nature of creation and what are possible objects of certain knowledge, not God's omniscience that we both affirm)

 

[godrulz]

You ignore the truth that God created all things with a purpose. That purpose being, His Son would inherit a heavenly kingdom inhabited by redeemed creatures and humanity.

God knows the future of His children that have been spiritually adopted to share in Christ's future and heavenly inheritance.

Knowledge of this future, purposed and provided by God for His elect, is realized by the sons of God through faith in the promises of God, that detail this future kingdom.



The redeemed sons of God; the believers in the Christ of God, are promised everlasting life ("eternity") with and in the Son. That is what the doctrine of divine election is all about. Ephesians 1:3-14.

Election is corporate and in Christ, not individual by eternal decree apart from response.

Determinism, bah!

 

[godrulz]

The inherent problem for OVers here is that if this prophecy was not fulfilled, then God was wrong. If God can make mistakes, the implications are positively horrifying.

I think we agree it was fulfilled, but how and when? It is also more generic than specific requiring speculation on its fulfillment.

 

[godrulz]

What happens then? Are the futures of these believers settled, guaranteed, and certain? Does not God have a purpose and plan for all Christians? Does not God know His own purposes, promises, and plans for His children? Did the cross work and victory over death accomplished by Jesus Christ not settle their eternal fate?

Or is God as unknowing of what lies ahead for them as well as He supposedly is without knowledge of the fates of all the unbelievers? If God has not knowledge or control over everyone's ultimate destinies, how certain is justice, punishment for sins, and hell? (Or do you deny Judgement Day, too?)

What value was the cross work of Jesus Christ, if He did not purchase a certain salvation and resurrection for His own? What kind of Savior, is an unknowing, powerless, ignorant Savior? What kind of King does not know and determine who will inhabit His kingdom?

Of course your remarks above contradict the teachings of Christ who taught of divine and irresistible drawing and calling of the elect to Himself, by God. (John 6:39; 44) Sinners are saved according to the will of God (John 5:21) and not according to their own corrupted wills.


Nang

TULIP requires proof texts out of context, eisegesis, monergism-monothetism-determinism....bottom line, bah!

 

[Nang]

God knows that those who believe in Christ will be given eternal life but God does not know who those believers will be until they believe.

Well then, what you are really saying, is that man saves himself, and God plays no part at all, other than blindly killing and therefore gambling His dear Son on the cross.

God wants us to be in Christ

No . . .God chose who would be in Christ. Ephesians 1:4.

and to be holy,

"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah." Romans 9:29; Isaiah 1:9; 13:19

Have you ever read Isaiah 6:9-10?

This Godly prophet taught just the opposite of what you attempt to teach.

but it's up to us if we will accept his offer.

The cross work of Jesus Christ was not a "offer," and neither is the gospel message that actually and spiritually draws the sons of God to faith in His sacrifice, an "offer."

I challenge you to produce one verse of Scripture that speaks of salvation being an "offer" that sinners can refuse or that sinners must "accept."

Salvation is the gift of God's grace that come through receiving the virtue of faith to believe in God's promises and repent from sins.

Such is not a mere possibility or opportunity, but the greatest and surest gift made to mankind, by God.

Nang