ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[DFT_Dave]

Again, for specifics, we cannot jump ahead under our own power. God seems to be able to do this with John, for instance. Our disagreement, I'm sure, has to do with whether or not John actually interacted with a future. I believe the text demands it and no OVer has ever dealt with the textual concerns to say otherwise to my logical satisfaction. It is cheap and shoddy exegesis in my initial and continuing estimation.

I see nothing in the book Revelation that could not be understood as a vision to show what God will cause to happen Judgment Day. John would not need a "vision" if he could experience "time travel".

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

It's impossible for us to have a future existence for God to see if we are finite and can only exist "moment by moment".

Even if God could exist through all "times" they would be his "times" not our "times", his eternity not our eternity because we do have one.

--Dave

 

[Nang]

Your humility and wisdom leave me speechless. :vomit:

--Dave

Thank you.

 

[Nang]

Even if God could exist through all "times"

Could? Are you saying you conceive of a God who might not exist evermore in times and beyond?

they would be his "times" not our "times",

Well . . .sure enough. :chuckle:

his eternity not our eternity because we do have one.

The Gospel message of the Bible is that temporal beings might inherit eternal life, by God's positioning the finite in the infinite Savior, Jesus Christ, by a divine and forensic act of grace.

Do you desire or intend to deny this core Gospel message?

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

Could? Are you saying you conceive of a God who might not exist evermore in times and beyond?

Well . . .sure enough. :chuckle:

The Gospel message of the Bible is that temporal beings might inherit eternal life, by God's positioning the finite in the infinite Savior, Jesus Christ, by a divine and forensic act of grace.

Do you desire or intend to deny this core Gospel message?

Nang

If you had ever read anything that I have writen here you would know exactly what I intend and what I deny and you would not be asking me this question.

--Dave

 

[tetelestai]

Your right, it simply means that whoever that person learned it from was. The study of the "perfections of God" comes from "natural theology" not from Biblical revelation. Natural theology comes from Greek philosophy which is why it is so named.

The following is from Judaism.com. It is a list of "traditional" beliefs of God. So, do you believe that Judaism was also influenced by Greek philosophy? Were the Jews influenced by Augustine?

What if these traditional Jewish beliefs of God preceded (predated) Greek philosophy and Augustine?

• God exists. The first line of the Torah (Hebrew Bible) reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." God is introduced as creator of the universe. No background information is needed as God's existence is a given. In Judaism, the world's existence is sufficient proof of God's existence.

• God is one. Belief in one God is a fundamental Jewish belief. The Shema, a central prayer, states "Hear, Israel: The Lord is God, The Lord is one." The idea of any other God is heretical for Jews. It follows that all prayer and praise can only be directed to God.

• God is incorporeal. In Judaism, God has no body, God is non-physical. Any mention of God's body is considered to be metaphorical. Any physical representation of God, such as the Golden Calf, is considered to be idolatry. As God has no body, He has no gender. While God is referred to in masculine terms and the Shechinah (Divine presence that fills the universe) is referred to in feminine terms, God is actually neither male nor female.

• God is eternal. God has no beginning and no end. He transcends time.

• God is omnipresent. God is everywhere. He has no spacial boundaries. He fills the universe and beyond. And He is always near.

• God is omniscient. God is all knowing. He knows all man’s thoughts and deeds, in the past, present and future.

• God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. The only thing outside of God's control is man's free will.

• God will reward good and punish bad. God is just and merciful. Thus, people can atone for their sins. Via prayer, repentance and giving (tzedakah), people can find their way back into God's favor.

 

[Nang]

If you had ever read anything that I have writen here you would know exactly what I intend and what I deny and you would not be asking me this question.

--Dave

I have read what you have written, and what you have written is not truth.

I did not really have to ask you the question to know that you believe and teach a false gospel.

My rhetorical question was to shine a light upon the darkness of your message, from which you do not turn.

Open View Theology is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Open View Theology is not a gospel of Godly Grace. Open View Theology is not biblical or honoring of the Holy Scriptures.

You advocate and attempt to propogate Open View Theology, so your posts consist of nothing more than falsehoods and devilish accusations against the true gospel preached by the spiritual children of God in your midst.

Nang

 

[DFT_Dave]

The following is from Judaism.com. It is a list of "traditional" beliefs of God. So, do you believe that Judaism was also influenced by Greek philosophy? Were the Jews influenced by Augustine?

What if these traditional Jewish beliefs of God preceded (predated) Greek philosophy and Augustine?

See Philo 20 BC - 50 AD

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

I have read what you have written, and what you have written is not truth.

I did not really have to ask you the question to know that you believe and teach a false gospel.

My rhetorical question was to shine a light upon the darkness of your message, from which you do not turn.

Open View Theology is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Open View Theology is not a gospel of Godly Grace. Open View Theology is not biblical or honoring of the Holy Scriptures.

You advocate and attempt to propogate Open View Theology, so your posts consist of nothing more than falsehoods and devilish accusations against the true gospel preached by the spiritual children of God in your midst.

Nang

Then to debate these issues is not your real intent, is it?

--Dave

 

[Delmar]

The following is from Judaism.com. It is a list of "traditional" beliefs of God. So, do you believe that Judaism was also influenced by Greek philosophy? Were the Jews influenced by Augustine?

What if these traditional Jewish beliefs of God preceded (predated) Greek philosophy and Augustine?

Here are a few examples of "traditional Jews", who petitioned the Lord, as if they believed, that the future was not settled in advance. Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Kin. 20:6; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19; Isa. 38:5

 

[godrulz]

I see nothing in the book Revelation that could not be understood as a vision to show what God will cause to happen Judgment Day. John would not need a "vision" if he could experience "time travel".

--Dave

STP is concerned about the details of Daniel 11 being inconsistent with OVT and a denial of exhaustive foreknowledge. Any thoughts?

 

[godrulz]

I have read what you have written, and what you have written is not truth.

I did not really have to ask you the question to know that you believe and teach a false gospel.

My rhetorical question was to shine a light upon the darkness of your message, from which you do not turn.

Open View Theology is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Open View Theology is not a gospel of Godly Grace. Open View Theology is not biblical or honoring of the Holy Scriptures.

You advocate and attempt to propogate Open View Theology, so your posts consist of nothing more than falsehoods and devilish accusations against the true gospel preached by the spiritual children of God in your midst.

Nang

Calvinism and TULIP is surely not the gospel. The same way you rant against OVT is what you would do against Arminianism. Your problem is determinism vs free will theism and a misunderstanding of the latter.

 

[tetelestai]

Here are a few examples of "traditional Jews", who petitioned the Lord, as if they believed, that the future was not settled in advance. Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Kin. 20:6; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19; Isa. 38:5

If I drop my wife off at the airport, and as I am leaving I pray to God that she has a safe flight; does not mean I believe the future is unsettled for God.

Nor does it mean that any of the OT Jews you showed petitioning God, mean that they believed God did not know the future.

 

[Lon]

I see nothing in the book Revelation that could not be understood as a vision to show what God will cause to happen Judgment Day. John would not need a "vision" if he could experience "time travel".

--Dave

And yet again, he 'talked' to an elder. Who was that man? I really want to know. Your answer will influence further discussion here and help me assess what you are saying about this particular. Is it a trap? Yes of a sort, but I'll explain it so you are not in the dark and can walk freely into it or choose not to reply:

Whatever John experienced, we see an interaction that is either fabricated or actual. Is the man he talked to a real person in the future or is he simply a made up phantom for the vision to take place and have meaning?

Your supposition, that God cannot see future actions of men nor transport John to an actual future, clouds a meaningful assessment of this scripture between us. I really want to know what would allow OV to assert their position here against my understanding of the text. It doesn't look like a logical interpretation to me at this point.

So there you have it, I've spelled what could become entrapping so that you will not be. I don't hold any reserve here. I want you to understand both the problem and the questions I'm asking.

 

[Lon]

STP is concerned about the details of Daniel 11 being inconsistent with OVT and a denial of exhaustive foreknowledge. Any thoughts?

No kidding!

Dan 11:2 "Three more kings will arise for Persia. Then a fourth king will be unusually rich, more so than all who preceded him. When he has amassed power through his riches, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece.
Dan 11:3 Then a powerful king will arise, exercising great authority and doing as he pleases.
Dan 11:4 Shortly after his rise to power, his kingdom will be broken up and distributed toward the four winds of the sky — but not to his posterity or with the authority he exercised, for his kingdom will be uprooted and distributed to others besides these.
Dan 11:5 "Then the king of the south and one of his subordinates will grow strong. His subordinate will resist him and will rule a kingdom greater than his.
Dan 11:6 After some years have passed, they will form an alliance. Then the daughter of the king of the south will come to the king of the north to make an agreement, but she will not retain her power, nor will he continue in his strength. She, together with the one who brought her, her child, and her benefactor will all be delivered over at that time.
Dan 11:7 "There will arise in his place one from her family line who will come against their army and will enter the stronghold of the king of the north and will move against them successfully.
Dan 11:8 He will also take their gods into captivity to Egypt, along with their cast images and prized utensils of silver and gold. Then he will withdraw for some years from the king of the north.
Dan 11:9 Then the king of the north will advance against the empire of the king of the south, but will withdraw to his own land.
Dan 11:10 His sons will wage war, mustering a large army which will advance like an overflowing river and carrying the battle all the way to the enemy's fortress.
Dan 11:11 "Then the king of the south will be enraged and will march out to fight against the king of the north, who will also muster a large army, but that army will be delivered into his hand.
Dan 11:12 When the army is taken away, the king of the south will become arrogant. He will be responsible for the death of thousands and thousands of people, but he will not continue to prevail.
Dan 11:13 For the king of the north will again muster an army, one larger than before. At the end of some years he will advance with a huge army and enormous supplies.
Dan 11:14 "In those times many will oppose the king of the south. Those who are violent among your own people will rise up in confirmation of the vision, but they will falter.
Dan 11:15 Then the king of the north will advance and will build siege mounds and capture a well-fortified city. The forces of the south will not prevail, not even his finest contingents. They will have no strength to prevail.
Dan 11:16 The one advancing against him will do as he pleases, and no one will be able to stand before him. He will prevail in the beautiful land, and its annihilation will be within his power.
Dan 11:17 His intention will be to come with the strength of his entire kingdom, and he will form alliances. He will give the king of the south a daughter in marriage in order to destroy the kingdom, but it will not turn out to his advantage.
Dan 11:18 Then he will turn his attention to the coastal regions and will capture many of them. But a commander will bring his shameful conduct to a halt; in addition, he will make him pay for his shameful conduct.
Dan 11:19 He will then turn his attention to the fortresses of his own land, but he will stumble and fall, not to be found again.
Dan 11:20 There will arise after him one who will send out an exactor of tribute to enhance the splendor of the kingdom, but after a few days he will be destroyed, though not in anger or battle.
Dan 11:21 "Then there will arise in his place a despicable person to whom the royal honor has not been rightfully conferred. He will come on the scene in a time of prosperity and will seize the kingdom through deceit.
Dan 11:22 Armies will be suddenly swept away in defeat before him; both they and a covenant leader will be destroyed.
Dan 11:23 After entering into an alliance with him, he will behave treacherously; he will ascend to power with only a small force.
Dan 11:24 In a time of prosperity for the most productive areas of the province he will come and accomplish what neither his fathers nor their fathers accomplished. He will distribute loot, spoils, and property to his followers, and he will devise plans against fortified cities, but not for long.
Dan 11:25 He will rouse his strength and enthusiasm against the king of the south with a large army. The king of the south will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to prevail because of the plans devised against him.
Dan 11:26 Those who share the king's fine food will attempt to destroy him, and his army will be swept away; many will be killed in battle.
Dan 11:27 These two kings, their minds filled with evil intentions, will trade lies with one another at the same table. But it will not succeed, for there is still an end at the appointed time.
Dan 11:28 Then the king of the north will return to his own land with much property. His mind will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action, and then return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 At an appointed time he will again invade the south, but this latter visit will not turn out the way the former one did.
Dan 11:30 The ships of Kittim will come against him, leaving him disheartened. He will turn back and direct his indignation against the holy covenant. He will return and honor those who forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 His forces will rise up and profane the fortified sanctuary, stopping the daily sacrifice. In its place they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Dan 11:32 Then with smooth words he will defile those who have rejected the covenant. But the people who are loyal to their God will act valiantly.
Dan 11:33 These who are wise among the people will teach the masses. However, they will fall by the sword and by the flame, and they will be imprisoned and plundered for some time.
Dan 11:34 When they stumble, they will be granted some help. But many will unite with them deceitfully.
Dan 11:35 Even some of the wise will stumble, resulting in their refinement, purification, and cleansing until the time of the end, for it is still for the appointed time.
Dan 11:36 "Then the king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every deity and he will utter presumptuous things against the God of gods. He will succeed until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been decreed must occur.
Dan 11:37 He will not respect the gods of his fathers — not even the god loved by women. He will not respect any god; he will elevate himself above them all.
Dan 11:38 What he will honor is a god of fortresses — a god his fathers did not acknowledge he will honor with gold, silver, valuable stones, and treasured commodities.
Dan 11:39 He will attack mighty fortresses, aided by a foreign deity. To those who recognize him he will grant considerable honor. He will place them in authority over many people, and he will parcel out land for a price.
Dan 11:40 "At the time of the end the king of the south will attack him. Then the king of the north will storm against him with chariots, horsemen, and a large armada of ships. He will invade lands, passing through them like an overflowing river.
Dan 11:41 Then he will enter the beautiful land. Many will fall, but these will escape: Edom, Moab, and the Ammonite leadership.
Dan 11:42 He will extend his power against other lands; the land of Egypt will not escape.
Dan 11:43 He will have control over the hidden stores of gold and silver, as well as all the treasures of Egypt. Libyans and Ethiopians will submit to him.
Dan 11:44 But reports will trouble him from the east and north, and he will set out in a tremendous rage to destroy and wipe out many.
Dan 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas toward the beautiful holy mountain. But he will come to his end, with no one to help him.

Suggestion? -a natural reading of the text?
It is an OVer's nightmare

 

[tetelestai]

No kidding!
It is an OVer's nightmare

Yes, I agree, it is an OV'er's nightmare.

Especially verse 11, here Daniel is describing someone’s future emotion (enraged). How could God know the future emotions of someone without EDF?

Dan 11:11 "Then the king of the south will be enraged and will march out to fight against the king of the north, who will also muster a large army, but that army will be delivered into his hand.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yes, I agree, it is an OV'er's nightmare.

Especially verse 11, here Daniel is describing someone’s future emotion (enraged). How could God know the future emotions of someone except for EDF?

Dan 11:11 "Then the king of the south will be enraged and will march out to fight against the king of the north, who will also muster a large army, but that army will be delivered into his hand.

And, especially Daniel 11:16 (KJV)

 

[themuzicman]

Yes, I agree, it is an OV'er's nightmare.

Especially verse 11, here Daniel is describing someone’s future emotion (enraged). How could God know the future emotions of someone without EDF?

Dan 11:11 "Then the king of the south will be enraged and will march out to fight against the king of the north, who will also muster a large army, but that army will be delivered into his hand.

Not sure how this is strictly an OVT nightmare. There is still significant discussion as to whether this prophecy was fulfilled as written or not.

Either way, the ability to influence over kings to go to war is well within God's ability, as is knowledge of all possible futures. It is quite probable that, given the present circumstance, and God's omnipotence and wisdom, this is all easily brought about by God for His purpose without EDF.

To say this requires EDF to accomplish is nothing more than a denial of God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

Muz

 

[tetelestai]

Not sure how this is strictly an OVT nightmare. There is still significant discussion as to whether this prophecy was fulfilled as written or not.

Either way, the ability to influence over kings to go to war is well within God's ability, as is knowledge of all possible futures. It is quite probable that, given the present circumstance, and God's omnipotence and wisdom, this is all easily brought about by God for His purpose without EDF.

To say this requires EDF to accomplish is nothing more than a denial of God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

Muz

On the previous page, I copied traditional views of God from Judaism.com. They are correct on God’s omnipotence

• God is omnipotent. God is all-powerful. The only thing outside of God's control is man's free will.

God is a respecter of man’s free will. God does not force obedience, God does not coerce.

Enragement is an emotion, manifested, or controlled by man’s free will. God cannot force someone to become enraged, nor can God keep someone from becoming enraged. Either would be a violation of man’s free will by God. The perfect righteousness, justice, love, etc of God cannot violate man’s free will.

For example, if I bump John Doe standing in line, he may become enraged and call me a name. If I bump someone else in the same line, they may themselves say they are sorry, and have no negative emotion. Therefore, God cannot "influence" an emotion, and respect our free wills at the same time.

The only way God can know the future emotions of an individual is EDF. God is omnisciencent.

It is a moot point whether the prophecy happened or has yet to happen. Either way God, through prophecy, is stating ahead of time what someone’s emotions will be.

EDF is God's omniscience and superior wisdom.

 

[themuzicman]

On the previous page, I copied traditional views of God from Judaism.com. They are correct on God’s omnipotence

But you're inconsistent on it.

God is a respecter of man’s free will. God does not force obedience, God does not coerce.

But God does have influence.

Enragement is an emotion, manifested, or controlled by man’s free will./quote]

Incorrect. We may be able to take control of emotions that occur within us, but emotions themselves do frequently occur outside the control of our will.

God cannot force someone to become enraged, nor can God keep someone from becoming enraged. Either would be a violation of man’s free will by God. The perfect righteousness, justice, love, etc of God cannot violate man’s free will.

LOL... If I know someone well enough, I can enrage them. You've lowered God to being less powerful than I am.

For example, if I bump John Doe standing in line, he may become enraged and call me a name. If I bump someone else in the same line, they may themselves say they are sorry, and have no negative emotion. Therefore, God cannot "influence" an emotion, and respect our free wills at the same time.

What a joke. Do you think if you knew someone well enough, you could enrage them? You're denying that God can have present knowledge of an individual.

The only way God can know the future emotions of an individual is EDF. God is omnisciencent.

Except that this isn't necessary. Your case is a joke. You've exposed yourself as someone who denies God's omnipotence.

It is a moot point whether the prophecy happened or has yet to happen. Either way God, through prophecy, is stating ahead of time what someone’s emotions will be.

Which can be brought about without that individual's free will being violated.

You are truly naive, if you think emotions are always controlled by the free will.

Muz