ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[godrulz]

You wast your breath trying to tell people you believe which you clearly do not. You remain dead because you prefer your death to Christ life. You say so every time you make a post.

I am a new creature in Christ. I have abundant and eternal life in Him. He has defeated death in my life. I am not separated from Him like I once was. I am a child of God through faith in His person and work.

None of this is possible if you have a false gospel and a counterfeit Christ.

Have you become a JW yet (fellow Arians)?

 

[Clete]

How does his Christology differ? I think you both affirm the virgin conception, Deity and resurrection of Christ, Second Coming, Trinity, etc.

He not only denies that God became flesh and died, but he denies who God is, what sort of person He is, His justice, righteousness and love; His very personality! He denies everything thing that makes God a good God! His god is the biggest baddest most arbitrary bully on the block who does whatever he wants for no reason at all other than to satisfy an unnecessary capricious whim. We are no more important to AMR's god than an itch on his deified butt. An itch that he, in exacting detail, predestined not only when and where to exist but how and when to be scratched.

In short the god of Calvinism bears ZERO resemblance to the God of Scripture when the thin vale of familiar terms they use is removed. Every single important term used in all of Christianity is twisted and redefined by the Calvinist. Sin, attonement, elect, salvation, death, reason, knowledge, love, justice, righteousness, regeneration, antinomy, truth, belief, you name it. The Calvinist has his own little twisted definition for whatever term he needs one for in order to maintain that their god cannot change, cannot learn, cannot be moved my love, cannot move in any way shape fashion or form. The god of Calvinism more closely resembles the idols of stone than the living and relational God of Scripture who hates such idols. Many, if not most Calvinists, have no idea that the system they identify themselves with teaches such things but AMR not only knows it, he teaches it to others and calls those who make sound arguments against it, devils and worse.

I say it again, I have no reason to believe that AMR is a believer in the God of Scripture. As far as I can tell he worships his Bible, Greek philosophy, his status among his colleagues, and the traditions of men.

Now, shall we grant Knight's request and move on?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Will, I didn't wont to believe it Clete, but you are afraid of the Gospel of Christ. It is acceptable to you only on your terms. It doesn't work like that. You have no standing to say anything of truth concerning the Gospel. You are a non believer in the Gospel of Christ and a firm believer in Cleteisms.

Oh so now I'm an unbeliever! Did you forget to take your medication this morning or something? How is it possible for a functioning human being to be this obtuse?!

I believe basically the exact same thing that you do and am afraid of nothing. The only difference is that I am willing to modify the words I use in order to get the point across, the same way you do every time you convey the gospel in something other than Greek or Hebrew.

I have an idea. How about, instead of freaking out and proving to everyone that you're an idiot every time you come across an argument, you actually respond to the argument point for point? :idea:

Are you even capable of such a thing?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

Oh so now I'm an unbeliever! Did you forget to take your medication this morning or something? How is it possible for a functioning human being to be this obtuse?!

I believe basically the exact same thing that you do and am afraid of nothing. The only difference is that I am willing to modify the words I use in order to get the point across, the same way you do every time you convey the gospel in something other than Greek or Hebrew.

I have an idea. How about, instead of freaking out and proving to everyone that you're an idiot every time you come across an argument, you actually respond to the argument point for point? :idea:

Are you even capable of such a thing?

Resting in Him,
Clete

No Clete, I am no idiot. I am not the one who is fabricating truth. You will not answer my question because you can't and sustain your fabricated gospel. Therefore you attack me and address and say you believe the same gospel to deflect having to answer. My question to you was right on point and asked respectfully. You avoided answering like the plague and then attack me.

 

[Philetus]

Is this 'free will' volitional or libertarian?

Free-Will is a Japanese independent record label founded in 1986.

Freedom is what we forfeited in the fall and have been granted by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

I firmly believe as living souls created in the image of God we were given ‘absolute’ freedom in and dominion over creation. All that was required was our acknowledge that we were not our own gods. Exercised in innocents, that freedom included the possibility (not the inevitability) of misuse of creation and denial of God’s sovereignty. Once exercised in a sinful way our innocents was lost. The knowledge of good and evil is a (if not the) result of the fall … not part of the solution. Therefore it isn’t our acquired (stolen) knowledge of good and evil that will help us understand God’s nature. 'Knowing good and evil' is the bed we made. We need to forsake it and return to the simple acknowledgment that God is good. Only then can we also forsake the nonsense that this thread and preoccupation with our own supposed goodness and the alleged evil of others has produced. Our knowledge of good and evil is what we base all our judgments of others (including God) on, and in judging others we only condemn ourselves.

To try to explain God and reconcile His goodness with the mess we have created is to besmirch the character of God in the vilest way. I have come to reject the whole theodicy issue as a false dichotomy and view it as the ultimate slander and worst blasphemy mankind has conjured up to excuse ourselves. To even try to reconcile the existence of evil and the goodness and power of God is to miss the point of the cross. God will in no way share in our evil! God can not be implicated in our sin in anyway whatsoever! And to say we are without sin is to call God a liar. Our sin is OUR sin. Yet God lovingly, redemptively enters into our suffering, takes upon Himself the penalty for our sin and sets us free. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

In short the god of Calvinism bears ZERO resemblance to the God of Scripture when the thin vale of familiar terms they use is removed. Every single important term used in all of Christianity is twisted and redefined by the Calvinist. Sin, attonement, elect, salvation, death, reason, knowledge, love, justice, righteousness, regeneration, antinomy, truth, belief, you name it. The Calvinist has his own little twisted definition for whatever term he needs one for in order to maintain that their god cannot change, cannot learn, cannot be moved my love, cannot move in any way shape fashion or form. The god of Calvinism more closely resembles the idols of stone than the living and relational God of Scripture who hates such idols. Many, if not most Calvinists, have no idea that the system they identify themselves with teaches such things but AMR not only knows it, he teaches it to others and calls those who make sound arguments against it, devils and worse.

Clete, I have called only one person a devil in my life, and that is you. Your words above (and similarly written often elsewhere) are just more undeniable evidence. Now hurry along and get the last word in (I know your pride won't let you resist) for I have shook your dust from my shoes and don't want to communicate with you anymore until you have repented. Moving on.

 

[elected4ever]

Free-Will is a Japanese independent record label founded in 1986.

Freedom is what we forfeited in the fall and have been granted by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

I firmly believe as living souls created in the image of God we were given ‘absolute’ freedom in and dominion over creation. All that was required was our acknowledge that we were not our own gods. Exercised in innocents, that freedom included the possibility (not the inevitability) of misuse of creation and denial of God’s sovereignty. Once exercised in a sinful way our innocents was lost. The knowledge of good and evil is a (if not the) result of the fall … not part of the solution. Therefore it isn’t our acquired (stolen) knowledge of good and evil that will help us understand God’s nature. 'Knowing good and evil' is the bed we made. We need to forsake it and return to the simple acknowledgment that God is good. Only then can we also forsake the nonsense that this thread and preoccupation with our own supposed goodness and the alleged evil of others has produced. Our knowledge of good and evil is what we base all our judgments of others (including God) on, and in judging others we only condemn ourselves.

What we gained in our salvation was not to sin as a choice but the liberty to follow God and love Him. That is what we could not do before. We can do that because we are a new creation and not subject to the flesh and sin ever again. How can we be free and still be subject to sin? That does not make sense.

To try to explain God and reconcile His goodness with the mess we have created is to besmirch the character of God in the vilest way. I have come to reject the whole theodicy issue as a false dichotomy and view it as the ultimate slander and worst blasphemy mankind has conjured up to excuse ourselves. To even try to reconcile the existence of evil and the goodness and power of God is to miss the point of the cross. God will in no way share in our evil! God can not be implicated in our sin in anyway whatsoever! And to say we are without sin is to call God a liar. Our sin is OUR sin. Yet God lovingly, redemptive enters into our suffering, takes upon Himself the penalty for our sin and sets us free. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.

Are you telling me that those who are now born of God now besmirch our own Father? Are you telling me that now we are still subject to the same acts of death that existed before we received life when the scripture clearly says we are not sinners and cannot sin? How can we as children of Light live in darkness? That is not possible. If we remain capable or sin then Christ is not in us and we are not as Christ is. This is not perfection of the flesh but the life of the spirit. If you live by the flesh you shall die but if you put to death the flesh you shall live. The only way to put the flesh to death is to receive life in the spirit. If you do not have the spirit you are still dead in trespasses and sins because you do not belong to God in such a case. No christian, those born of God, can sin because that are incapable of doing so. To say that one does is to say God is a sinner. When you say that you sin and are still a sinner is to deny the gospel of Christ and Christ affords you nothing.

 

[godrulz]

I believe basically the exact same thing that you do and am afraid of nothing. The only difference is that I am willing to modify the words I use in order to get the point across, the same way you do every time you convey the gospel in something other than Greek or Hebrew.


Resting in Him,
Clete

e4e has recently said that Jesus is not God. This puts him outside of biblical Christianity (even if he is right on some peripheral sin issues in your mind).

 

[godrulz]

Clete, I have called only one person a devil in my life, and that is you. Your words above (and similarly written often elsewhere) are just more undeniable evidence. Now hurry along and get the last word in (I know your pride won't let you resist) for I have shook your dust from my shoes and don't want to communicate with you anymore until you have repented. Moving on.

I do not appreciate when Calvinists wrongly accuse OT of finite godism (OT is not Process thought) or having a different God because we differ on the nature of the future (partially open vs closed).

I can appreciate that a Calvinist would not want to be caricatured as Clete has done. I have problems with Calvinism's distortion of God's character and ways, but it is not in the same boat as them worshipping Allah or Buddha.

I consider Sproul, Packer, Pink, Calvin, Whitefield, Edwards, Spurgeon, Hodge, Berkhof, etc. to be brothers in Christ despite our divergent views.

Perhaps Clete is making a point with hyperbole or the discussion has become too personal vs objective.

I did not appreciate when sozo called me worse than Hitler, child of Satan, etc. because I could not adopt his sinless perfectionism views.

I trust you both will reconcile and return to light, not heat. We should not compromise truth for unity, but love does demand that we show more discernment in what makes us brothers in Christ and what makes us false teachers who do not know and love Him.

 

[themuzicman]

So much for unity in the body.

Muz

 

[Stripe]

For the sake of fellowship I offer this token. Snapped today on my way home at a red light. For you AMR.

(does 210 mean anything to you?)

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

For the sake of fellowship I offer this token. Snapped today on my way home at a red light. For you AMR.

(does 210 mean anything to you?)

Means everything. See the Book of Job 2:10. :chuckle:

 

[Clete]

No Clete, I am no idiot.

Like you're in any position to tell.

I am not the one who is fabricating truth.

No, that's AMR.

You will not answer my question because you can't and sustain your fabricated gospel.

See! I told you that you were an idiot! Your question was rhetorical! It was presented as some convoluted definition to a completely different sort of free will than anyone on this thread is discussing. But if a direct answer to the question itself is what you want then by all means...

clete, Do you believe that every person has the right to act in accordance with who they are and not who they are not? That is the free will I believe in.

This question is OBVIOUSLY asked in order to interject, once again, this sinless perfectionism doctrine into the discussion under the false pretense of free will. For the term 'free will' you may as well have put 'Tonka Toys' or 'lap top computers' or 'spaghetti' or any other random word or phrase because whether one has the the right to do something has nothing to do with whether they are free to do it or not.

Ignoring that though, for the sake of answering your precious "perfectly asked" question, people act in unpredictable ways all the time, doing things that could rightly be described as being "out of character" for them. And so do we have the right to act in accordance with who we are? Sure! Do we not have the right to act in accordance with who we are not? That question is unanswerable. What do you even mean by "Do we have the right?" What do you mean by "who they are" and "who they are not"? As I said already, people act out of character all the time, but whether or not doing so is right, wrong, or indifferent depends on what they do and why, not on who they are.

Therefore you attack me and address and say you believe the same gospel to deflect having to answer.

Right! It's pretty obvious that I give a hoot about deflecting your anger, isn't it?

Give me a break elected4ever! You and I both believe that Christians do wrong things all the time. The only difference is that you won't use the word sin in reference to those actions and I will. Neither of us believes that the sin is imputed to the Christian and that in Him, we are all perfect and cannot be otherwise and so truly the only difference between you and I is that you rob yourself of the word 'sin' and I do not. You count that as a loss on my part and I count it as a loss on yours. Now go be your ridiculous self around everyone else besides me and let someone else look at you cross-eyed for a change, okay?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

He has recently said that Jesus is not God. This puts him outside of biblical Christianity (even if he is right on some peripheral sin issues in your mind).

I was not aware of this but it doesn't surprise me at all and thus my comment concerning believing the same thing he does should be understood to pertain only to the issue of our present standing of righteous perfection in Christ, by faith and that the more we keep our focus on our position in Him the more we are molded into His image while in our physical body.

Beyond that, I know virtually nothing about what e4e believes. He's as incoherent as anyone I've ever come in contact with.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Stripe]

Means everything. See the Book of Job 2:10. :chuckle:

Job was a pretty cool guy...

 

[elected4ever]

I was not aware of this but it doesn't surprise me at all and thus my comment concerning believing the same thing he does should be understood to pertain only to the issue of our present standing of righteous perfection in Christ, by faith and that the more we keep our focus on our position in Him the more we are molded into His image while in our physical body.

Beyond that, I know virtually nothing about what e4e believes. He's as incoherent as anyone I've ever come in contact with.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You see what a half truth will get you. A false accusation by a non believer that can't stand the truth. What I said was that Jesus is not the father That Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh and that the trinity as presently taught by trinitarians is a myth. As a mater of fact my position is for more Biblical and logical than Godrulz. That is unless you wont to believe that Jesus is a schitsofrantic and goes around talking to himself. You see clete, he is like you. He only believes the part that suits him. The rest he makes up.

 

[elected4ever]

Like you're in any position to tell.


No, that's AMR.


See! I told you that you were an idiot! Your question was rhetorical! It was presented as some convoluted definition to a completely different sort of free will than anyone on this thread is discussing. But if a direct answer to the question itself is what you want then by all means...


This question is OBVIOUSLY asked in order to interject, once again, this sinless perfectionism doctrine into the discussion under the false pretense of free will. For the term 'free will' you may as well have put 'Tonka Toys' or 'lap top computers' or 'spaghetti' or any other random word or phrase because whether one has the the right to do something has nothing to do with whether they are free to do it or not.

Ignoring that though, for the sake of answering your precious "perfectly asked" question, people act in unpredictable ways all the time, doing things that could rightly be described as being "out of character" for them. And so do we have the right to act in accordance with who we are? Sure! Do we not have the right to act in accordance with who we are not? That question is unanswerable. What do you even mean by "Do we have the right?" What do you mean by "who they are" and "who they are not"? As I said already, people act out of character all the time, but whether or not doing so is right, wrong, or indifferent depends on what they do and why, not on who they are.


Right! It's pretty obvious that I give a hoot about deflecting your anger, isn't it?

Give me a break elected4ever! You and I both believe that Christians do wrong things all the time. The only difference is that you won't use the word sin in reference to those actions and I will. Neither of us believes that the sin is imputed to the Christian and that in Him, we are all perfect and cannot be otherwise and so truly the only difference between you and I is that you rob yourself of the word 'sin' and I do not. You count that as a loss on my part and I count it as a loss on yours. Now go be your ridiculous self around everyone else besides me and let someone else look at you cross-eyed for a change, okay?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Just prove to me that Jesus could have sinned and I will change my mind. You do not know who Jesus is. Jesus had the free will to act within the person He was and not who He was not. There was and is no possibility that Jesus would have, could have or did sin. You see Jesus was of God and He is as the Father is but He is not the Father. If Jesus could have sinned He would have sinned.

 

[Clete]

You see what a half truth will get you. A false accusation by a non believer that can't stand the truth. What I said was that Jesus is not the father That Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh and that the trinity as presently taught by trinitarians is a myth. As a mater of fact my position is for more Biblical and logical than Godrulz. That is unless you wont to believe that Jesus is a schitsofrantic and goes around talking to himself. You see clete, he is like you. He only believes the part that suits him. The rest he makes up.

Well one thing's for certain, you are a liar.

Clear this up once and for all elected4ever by giving a straight and unequivocal answer to the following questions...

Has God the Son always existed?

Is Jesus and God the Son the same person?

Anything other than one word answers to both of those question will prove to me that you are not a Christian and remain in your sins (by whatever definition of 'sin' you want to use).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Stripe]

Just prove to me that Jesus could have sinned and I will change my mind.

Jesus has never and will never sin. By faith I declare this true. Proving that He could will remain the task of those who hate Him.

You do not know who Jesus is. Jesus had the free will to act within the person He was and not who He was not. There was and is no possibility that Jesus would have, could have or did sin. You see Jesus was of God and He is as the Father is but He is not the Father. If Jesus could have sinned He would have sinned.

This makes no sense.

 

[elected4ever]

Jesus has never and will never sin. By faith I declare this true. Proving that He could will remain the task of those who hate Him.


This makes no sense.

Are you as Christ is today? If not then it will not make sense to you. I declare by faith that as Christ is so am I in this world. Are you willing to make such a declaration? If you are not as Christ is you are not in Him because you cannot be in Christ and not be as He is.