ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
patman said:
Do you understand the boundaries God established for Israel still have gentiles occupying them? 3000 years after the prophecy?
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The prophecy had nothing to do with "boundaries," but with occupation of a certain land, which was certainly fulfilled for the Jews.

The only way this prophecy would have gone unfulfilled, is if Israel never occupied Canaan and Palestine.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Knight said:
YES.

I am saying God DID NOT drive them out.

Now please answer my question.

Are you saying that God did "drive them out"?

A YES or NO would be great.
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Yes, and yes.

The first yes, is regarding the historical occupation of the Jews in Canaan and Palestine. The second yes, regards the spiritual application of this prophecy and promise.
 
patman

patman

Active member
Nang said:
The prophecy had nothing to do with "boundaries," but with occupation of a certain land, which was certainly fulfilled for the Jews.

The only way this prophecy would have gone unfulfilled, is if Israel never occupied Canaan and Palestine.
Click to expand...

Don't you know anything about the Bible?

God was driving out all the nations from the country of Israel, designated by its borders. Today the Boundaries of Israel are not the same as God set them up originally. The nation that God was talking about never had these tribes/peoples/nations driven out of it.

Pretend all you want, because that is the only way you can keep your precious calvinism.
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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Nang said:
Yes, and yes.

The first yes, is regarding the historical occupation of the Jews in Canaan and Palestine. The second yes, regards the spiritual application of this prophecy and promise.
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Well then, you just lost the argument.

Were you aware that God Himself tells us that He DIDN'T drive them out?

Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.​

There is no argument. (or at least there shouldn't be if you would read God's word)

God DID NOT drive them out even though He said that He would "without fail".

Would you admit that you didn't know about this story and spoke out of ignorance? Will you agree (now that you know better) to never again assert that God did drive them out when God Himself states that He didn't drive them out?

Will you admit you were wrong?
 
Philetus

Philetus

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Nang said:
The prophecy had nothing to do with "boundaries," but with occupation of a certain land, which was certainly fulfilled for the Jews.

The only way this prophecy would have gone unfulfilled, is if Israel never occupied Canaan and Palestine.
Click to expand...

I agree that prophecy isn't about geography. Though sometimes it pertains to real-estate.
But, prophecy is one big 'boundary'. It separates what is contingent from what God will in fact do regardless of or in response to contingencies.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

Ask Mr. Religion

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Clete said:
AMR,

How about crafting an argument against the Open Theist's position on atonement rather than something that you or some other Calvinist has made up out of whole cloth?

I am not, in any way whatsoever, an Arminian, suggesting otherwise is either ignorance or a lie.

I do not, in neither quality nor quantity, limit the value of the Christ's death on the cross.

I do not, in any way, believe that I saved myself, nor that anyone else is capable of the same saying otherwise is a game of semantics played by those who aren't interested in engaging the Open View on its merits but rather in winning the emotional allegiance of the weak minded who like the theological status quo more than the truth.

Basically your entire post is one enormous waste of time aside from the portions of it that delineate your own position as no one here is an Arminian and this thread is not about Arminianism but rather the Open View, which very simply is not the same thing. I can defeat the Arminian position quicker and easier than you can and do so with more logical coherence in that I'm not undermining my own position in doing so as you would be. If anything Arminianism is nothing more than a subset of and reaction too Calvinism. Open Theism has nothing to do with either of them.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Thank you for your comments, Clete.
  1. Do you believe that the sinner is dead, not just dying, but completely spiritually dead in their sins?
  2. Do you believe that there is absolutely nothing the sinner can do to save themselves, that is that the sinner cannot originate the love for God in their heart since the sinner is a captive and willing slave to sin unable to deliver themselves from its corruption?
  3. Do you believe that the lost are able to only sin more or sin less, that is the sinner is wholly inclined to evil and therefore lacks any abilities of spritual discernment?
  4. Do you believe that given the sinner's innate sinful state of mind, as a condition of his sinful nature, it is beyond the power of the the sinner's will to change it?
The answers are only a simple 'yes' or 'no' requiring no straining of the scriptures to elaborate an answer.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Knight said:
Well then, you just lost the argument.
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I did?



Were you aware that God Himself tells us that He DIDN'T drive them out?
Click to expand...

Didn't drive who out? ". . the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites?"

According to the later Joshua passages, some Jebusites remained in Jerusalem and some Canaanites remained in Ephraim. Not as ruling tribes, but residuals, and that only because the Israelites spared them contrary to the commands of God, and thus became a thorn in the flesh to Israel, as judgment from God.

But what happened to all the others? And did not Israel occupy and rule via their own tribal system, over this residual population, in the promised land?

And do you not believe there might be further, and future, and spiritual applications of the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 that are yet to be fulfilled?

You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion. Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.

God DID NOT drive them out even though He said that He would "without fail".
Click to expand...

Do the named tribes listed in the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 function in that land today?

Would you admit that you didn't know about this story and spoke out of ignorance? Will you agree (now that you know better) to never again assert that God did drive them out when God Himself states that He didn't drive them out?

Will you admit you were wrong?
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Nope.

And you will find I am not easily manipulated, either.

Nang
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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Nang said:
You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion. Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.

Do the named tribes listed in the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 function in that land today?

Nope.

And you will find I am not easily manipulated, either.

Nang
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Yet it was God Himself who said He DIDN'T drive them out.

You see, you can appeal to whatever fantasy you like but God Himself claimed He didn't drive them out so you will have to take it up with Him.

Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.​
 
Philetus

Philetus

New member
You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion.
Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.
Click to expand...

:rotfl:

More than you know. More than anyone knows to be exact.
 
Clete

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Thank you for your comments, Clete.
  1. Do you believe that the sinner is dead, not just dying, but completely spiritually dead in their sins?
  2. Do you believe that there is absolutely nothing the sinner can do to save themselves, that is that the sinner cannot originate the love for God in their heart since the sinner is a captive and willing slave to sin unable to deliver themselves from its corruption?
  3. Do you believe that the lost are able to only sin more or sin less, that is the sinner is wholly inclined to evil and therefore lacks any abilities of spritual discernment?
  4. Do you believe that given the sinner's innate sinful state of mind, as a condition of his sinful nature, it is beyond the power of the the sinner's will to change it?
The answers are only a simple 'yes' or 'no' requiring no straining of the scriptures to elaborate an answer.
Click to expand...
These would be simple 'yes' or 'no' questions if you definition of the terms weren't so loaded with your theology. As it is there is no way to answer these questions in a straight forward way as they are asked here.

You've asked effectively "Do I believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.

The answer is no, I do not. But you already knew that, didn't you?

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
themuzicman

themuzicman

Well-known member
Knight said:
Are you saying that God did "drive them out"?

A YES or NO would be great. :)
Click to expand...

Good question. I assume you've done the historical work in tracking the movement of these tribes to give us a definitive answer.


However, They were not driven out before Israel as promised.

Muz
 
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