Only Bill Clinton could squirm his way out of this question and have fools believe him. Nice work forcing him into it, although he will not admit it.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
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Only Bill Clinton could squirm his way out of this question and have fools believe him. Nice work forcing him into it, although he will not admit it.
Philetus
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Choosing between Calvinism and Open Theism, of course.
(Wouldn't it be a hoot if the boy comes home an Open Theists?
I have an 18 year old son ... I feel for you AMR.)
:rotfl:
Caution: Never underestimate the squirming abilities of preconceived theologies.
And still, no one has answered my question.
Since God created everything out of nothing (which simply means without his power everything would not exist). Then he must be continually conserving all form including us and our free will. So in this sense since God defines our nature and holds our free willnature in place, he is always apaort of our free will acts.
Creation is not something that occured at some point and that was it. His creation is continual ad his plans unfold through his creation.
Creation is not something that occured at some point and that was it. His creation is continual ad his plans unfold through his creation.
Evoken
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Define "genuine free will".
Lon
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't believe we have 'genuine' (absolute) freewill. Romans makes our clay-like predicament really clear (Romans 9:21). We don't like to admit we are not the rulers of our own castles. Autonomy is a fallacy. Our very breath is sustained by a perfect Creator (Colossians 1:17; Colossians 2:19; Ephesians 4:16). The goal of our faith is not autonomy, it is slavery. We are owned, either by sin or by our Lord. Slaves do not have 'freewill' choices. They have the choice to obey or rebel. This is and always was our only choice. The rest is contingent upon only this. If I wear the red shirt today, I do so either because I am serving one master or the other. Variety is meaningless. Does it really matter if I have the tuna or ham? The only decision with any eternal bearing is why. If I live today it is either for Christ or it is not. Variety is gift from God, not a mark of freewill choices. I am NOT free. I'm in bondage (Romans 1:1, Titus 1:1).
Nang
TOL Subscriber
:thumb:
"And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." Romans 6:18
Evoken
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We agree in principle. However, I would not call the act of serving God "slavery" but an act of true freedom. Slavery is in disobeying him, by obeying him, we live up to our capacity as humans. God's plan was for 99.99999 percent of his creation to run mechanistically and the other 0.00001 percent to freely love him. We act mechanistically and as slaves when we refuse to do so.
Evo
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The regenerated have free will, that is, to ability to become the kind of creature God wants us to be.
Scripture nowhere says that we are free in the sense of being outside of God’s sovereign control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. Unfortunately, this is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free. Nor does Scripture say anywhere that we are free in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God’s power.
We deny we have an abstract freedom, but a revised conception of freedom. For freedom, after all, is not arbitrariness. There is in all rational action a why for acting — a reason which decides action. The truly free person is not the uncertain, incalculable person, but the person who is reliable. In short, freedom has its laws — spiritual laws — and the omniscient God knows what these are. And I thank Him for being completely in control to assure the direction I should move my life towards.
Nang
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When the Bible speaks of "slavery" it speaks not of forceful obeisience, but of willful servantry. As exemplied in the ultimate Servant of God; the Lord Jesus Christ, whom coming as a perfectly willing and obedient "Servant," earned this praise from His Father:
"Behold My Servant, whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul is well
pleased: I will put My Spirit upon Him, and He shall show judgment to the Gentiles."
Matthew 12:18
Servanthood is honorable and in accordance with human design. All men were created by God to serve their Creator.
I disagree. Disobedience is sin, not servanthood, of which we now speak and attempt to define.
The depraved human race has no such capacity.
Only Jesus Christ, the sinless Servant of God, who obeyed God unto death without sin, possesses such moral capacity.
That is why orthodox Christianity teaches that the moral righteousness of Jesus Christ, the perfect Servant, must be imputed to the (sinful) elect, chosen by the Father in the Son, in order that they might stand legally righteous in His sight.
There is no Scripture to support this view, sorry to say, friend. . . 99.99999% mechanistical behavior, would be the result of a form of fatalism.
This is backwards to what is taught in the Word of God.
God regenerates His elect, by empowering them with His Holy Spirit, making them new creatures able to love His Person and His Law, and thus, making them morally WILLING to serve His righteousness.
It is the justification (forgiveness of their sins) accomplished by Christ on the cross, that makes this regeneration and (new) servanthood even spiritually possible.
Nang
Lon
Well-known member
We are on a semantical discussion here, because I agree. Paul gives both scenarios of the same placement in Christ. A freedom to do God's will. A slavery to His purposes and happily so. The term 'freedom' or free will then becomes the needed focal point for understanding. I am never 'autonomously' free.
This kind of freedom (autonomous) is the freedom to choose a Christ-less existence. It is the discussion of libertarian freewill. If we are going to call that totally free, we are talking about being free of Him.
It totally then, demands that we see freedom as being 'separation' from one of two masters.
This is my understanding of freedom as well as my understanding of 'choice.'
God has enabled us to choose Him through Christ. Again, this is my view of freedom/bond-servant. They are antithesis between the two masters.
In Him
This kind of freedom (autonomous) is the freedom to choose a Christ-less existence. It is the discussion of libertarian freewill. If we are going to call that totally free, we are talking about being free of Him.
It totally then, demands that we see freedom as being 'separation' from one of two masters.
This is my understanding of freedom as well as my understanding of 'choice.'
God has enabled us to choose Him through Christ. Again, this is my view of freedom/bond-servant. They are antithesis between the two masters.
In Him
It is redundant, like libertarian free will. Free will involves contingencies, being able to chose between alternatives. The choice may or may not happen (might, might not). This has an element of uncertainty. There is no causation or coercion other than the free agent's will.
Compatibilism waters it down by saying we can only do what we are inclined to do or something like that.
There are moral and mundane choices. It should be self-evident that I can freely chose to eat or not eat generally. A believer or an atheist can or cannot commit adultery. Volitional issues lead to personal responsibility. My Calvinistic friends miss this simple point. I agree with them that we cannot save ourselves, but we can receive or reject Christ (they would disagree based on TULIP).
Philetus
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I'm not so sure of you percentages, :chuckle: but your point is well taken. Even if it is only 0.00001% freedom ... that's freedom!
Exercising our God given freedom to sin does not immediately remove us from the environment that by the grace of God sustains our lives. Sinning against God, others, and/or even the environment does in a very real sense place us in slavery to our own volitions. We create disorder that returns to bite us. We fall victims to our own self-centeredness. We make poor rulers of the universe, even our little corners, and without true acknowledgment of God, we self-destruct. True freedom lies in recognizing that our freedom is to be exercised within the limitations of loving relationships, just as the natural order of things teaches.
In that sense, because God freely chose to create significant others and endow them with life/freedom of their own, it can be said (though the language is awkward) that God is no longer ‘free’ to exist as if they do not exist and still remain faithful to Himself. The Good News is that although we have failed to acknowledge God and continue to suppress the truth about God, God does not abandon us; God continues to acknowledge our existence even while giving us over to vain pursuits and without coercion provides everything we need to repent and return to right relationships. To make God absolutely immutable, timeless and distant through excessive transcendence is to deny God this loving, reciprocal relationship that God in Christ has gone to such lengths to make available to us. It may be the greatest sin the religious mind has ever concocted.
Philetus
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Galatians 5:1-12
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
In Christ alone is total freedom; freedom to live in right relationships. In Christ “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.” In Christ we have the freedom to say simply yes or no without jeopardizing the righteousness for which we hope. Christ in us is the hope of glory. Any ‘yeast’ of persuasion that tries to convince otherwise does not come from Christ, the one who calls us to be free. Use of that freedom is the concern that Paul is addressing here, not freedom itself. We have the freedom to indulge the sinful nature or serve others in Love as ourselves. True love is to love others ‘as ourselves.’ I’m not coerced to love because I’m in Christ; in Christ I am free to be myself and to love others as I would. I’m free to love or not to love. I’m led, not driven, by the Spirit to love. I’m free to engage in any activity or attitude on either list (acts of the sinful nature or fruit of the Spirit). Until I choose the contingency remains even though I am IN CHRIST and Christ is IN ME. Each produces results; each affects others and myself. Every choice and action shapes the future to some degree. I’m neither under the Law nor am I enslaved to the sinful nature. I’m FREE!
And with God's help I'll keep in step with the Spirit.
Philetus
And if the reason is that it's clean?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Paul taught he focused on "Christ crucified." I Cor. 2:2
At what price to God?
Do you remember and focus on "Christ crucified?" Constantly recalling that sinners have been ransomed by the shedding of life-blood by the Son of God?
Jesus Christ whom God considered, "the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world" and ordained would be offered up at the hands of His enemies to save a people?
What actions do you credit with giving you freedom to have "right relationships?" Your choices, or the Son of God dying on the cross?
Frankly, I see the latter missing in the OVT. I see little giving of glory to the cross work of Jesus Christ, and too much emphasis on the volitional works of sinners.
Nang
Philetus
New member
Somebody shoot me; I agree 100%! (But, then, it is hard to disagree with questions.
)Me 0%! God crucified 100%!
In a forum like this it is impossible to say it all.
And true, Open Theists apparently need to do a better job of saying it if you aren’t hearing it! Opponents need to do a better job of listening, as well. Just because you don't see it here doesn't mean it isn't there. No open theist I know or have read thinks salvation comes anyway but through the cross of Christ. The difference is that in the settled view our volition has NOTHING to do with salvation which to us isn’t biblical or reasonable.
At what price to God? Indeed! Yes, Christ crucified! God in the flesh - actually suffering real pain. Really dying! Providing everything we need to repent and return; and entirely at God's own expense. Hardly an unmoved mover, we would say! And the result is our freedom in Christ. And we are forever grateful.
Free in Christ; free indeed,
Philetus
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