Notes:
1. AMR's original TULIP post is
here
2. My first response to AMR is located
here
3. AMR's first response to my first post is
here
4. AMR's second response to my first post is
here
Both of his responses are quite detailed and informative. Well worth the read. Now, on to my response to AMR's first response.
On Total Depravity
Total depravity does not mean “utter depravity”, that is, completely unable to do some good. But, the context of the depravity used here is the good in Godly things, or spirituality. When we say the unregenerate is totally depraved, we mean that the unregenerate will never seek spiritual things. They will never seek God on their own accord for they are unable to do so given their sinful nature.
Keeping in mind the distinction I made in my previous post between natural and supernatural good, that is, that fallen man can do good proportionate to his nature (any good work not done out of supernatural love or intended towards man's final end) and not any good which exceeds his fallen nature (salutary acts or works intended towards man's final end), then I say that we agree.
In order for fallen man to will and do any supernatural good, internal grace
* which comes from God prior to any action of man and without consideration to any merits on their part is absolutely necessary (John 15:5, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:5, Philippians 2:13). This grace is also necessary for the beginning of faith and salvation (John 6:44, John 6:66, Ephesians 2:8).
That said, the manner in which God bestows this grace on men is not by coercion but by persuasion. That is, God doesn't just grabs a man and turns him around without any regards to his will in order to "force" him to believe and obey him. Rather, what God does is very much like what we see illustrated in Scripture (Revelation 3:20). His "knocking" is the grace he bestows on us which moves our will towards him, our freedom consists on the act of opening or not the door so that he comes in to us. Of course, this does not means that what happens is that half of the work is done by God and the other half is done by man, rather, the positive response of man towards God, since it is itself a supernatural good, is moved from beginning to end by the grace of God. As the Scripture cited above says
"For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will." (Philippians 2:13).
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* Internal grace is that grace which operates within man and moves him towards God.
Paul tells us, "The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So they that are in the flesh cannot please God:" (Romans 8:7). Similarly, "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned," (1 Corinthians 2:14). The plain reading of these verses clearly shows the extent of fallen man. Thus we see that man in his natural state cannot even see the kingdom of God, much less can he get into it.
Yet, St. Paul tells us,
"Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable" (Romans 1:20). Now, who are the ones that are inexcusable? The elect? According to St. Paul it can't be the elect, for he follows with
"when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God..." (Romans 1:21). Surely, the elect would not fail to glorify God nor would they be given to all sorts of sinful behavior like St. Paul describes in the verses that follow.
I say that these verses demonstrate that it is not beyond the capacity of fallen man to know that God exists. The existence of God, since it can be known with certainty by the natural light of reason, is not itself a matter of faith, but a preamble to faith. The fact that fallen man can know that God exists, but fails to glorify him as God by falling into idolatry and superstition can be seen in the many different "religious" beliefs and practices that we see today and that have existed across human history. In Scripture we also see plenty of instances where people give into the worship of idols while thinking that they are gods (Exodus 32:1-6, Jeremias 19:4, Ezechiel 23:37).
That said, I think that we can better understand what St. Paul is saying in the verses you cited when he speaks about "carnal mind" and "natural man". It does not speaks about man's inability to receive God's grace, his ability to do natural good or to know natural religious truths such as the fact that God exists. Rather, it speaks about man's refusal to receive God's grace. Indeed, going back to Romans, we see St. Paul says
"And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1:28). Here it is made clear that there is a refusal on man's part to receive God's grace and to give him the worship and glory due to him that comes prior to God giving them up to all sinful behavior. This is why it is said that man is sent to Hell by God on account of their own sin.
Just as Lazarus could not rise from the dead until called, the unregenerate cannot do anything to help themselves get saved until called. The regenerating grace of God is a free gift to His elect. The unregenerate cannot lay claim to it, nor can they somehow “help” God give it to them.
The above being said, we are in agreement here. God's grace, which as I said is absolutely necessary for fallen man to will and do any supernatural good and for the beginning of faith and salvation, cannot be merited by doing natural works, nor can it be obtained by petitions nor can man by himself acquire any positive disposition for grace. This is because the concepts of grace and natural merit are mutually exclusive (Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:4-5).
Furthermore, to claim that the unregenerate can somehow cooperate in their own salvation is to dilute the atonement of Christ.
As I have been saying, the unregenerate (or fallen man) by himself cannot do any supernatural good, much less can he cooperate in their own salvation, so we agree on this. The justified however, by the performance of works of faith can merit heavenly rewards (Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:6-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 1:17). This is something that flows from God's infinite justice and mercy, by which he rewards more than what is merited and punishes less than what is deserved.
Further, St. Paul says
"...with fear and trembling work out your salvation" (Philippians 2:12), indeed, there are many instances in Scripture which emphasize the need of our cooperation with God and where we are called to do something more than simply having faith in order to be saved (1 Timothy 4:16, James 2:20, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:13, John 5:29). We also see that God works together with man in the process of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:9-10, 2 Corinthians 6:1 ref. Isaias 49:8). This is done, of course, in the manner that I described above, where our will and our acts are moved from beginning to end by the grace of God.
Now, let's go thru a set of verses (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) that directly relate to your claim that to cooperate on one's salvation means that one dilutes the atonement of Christ:
11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
The foundation referred to in verse 11 while including the atonement of Christ, is not limited to it. Rather, besides the work of atonement, it also includes the whole body of teachings that Jesus Christ handed down to the apostles and instructed them to do and teach to other people. Beyond this foundation no other foundation can be laid, and besides it neither salvation nor favor in God can be found. This foundation laid down by God alone is an act of external grace
*. In this sense, we do not cooperate with God, as if laying down some foundation additional to the one he has already laid.
However, man can build upon this foundation, as St. Paul says with works of faith, and in doing so, he can merit heavenly rewards. This doesn't means that something is lacking in the foundation that we need to add in order to be saved. As you can see in verse 15, the man that suffers loss when his works are burned is still saved because of that foundation which is Christ Jesus. Of course, that is not to say that works of faith are not needed, for doing works of faith is what Jesus Christ taught and as such it is part of the foundation laid down by God. What can be built upon are additional works of faith that while not explicitly demanded by God, are nonetheless meritorious. Such as forsaking marriage for the sake of the kingdom, depriving one's self of every riches for the sake of the poor, etc.
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* External grace is any benevolent deed of God for the salvation of men, such as his atonement.
Arminians (and other Arminian derivatives, such as open theism) hold that Christ died for all men alike, while Calvinists hold that in the intention and secret plan of God, Christ died for the elect only, and that Christ’s death had only an incidental reference to others in so far as they are partakers of common grace. The meaning might be brought more clearly amplified if we used the phrase “Limited Redemption” rather than Limited Atonement. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe the Atonement is strictly an infinite transaction. But for Calvinists, the limitation emerges, theologically, in the application of the benefits of the atonement, that is, in redemption.
The Scripture says
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world" (1 John 2:2) and
"...because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful." (1 Timothy 4:10). So, it is clear that Chris' atonement was indeed universal and that Christ died for all men, and not just for the elect or the faithful.
However, the atonement can be said to be universal in two ways, first, as it relates to the Father, that is, as a sacrifice that was enough to atone for the sins of the whole of mankind without exception, wether past, present or future. And this can be called Objective Redemption. Second, in the subjective application of the fruits of the atonement to individual men. The atonement is said to be universal in the first sense, but not in the second sense. That is, with his sacrifice Jesus Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but not actual for all men. We know this is the case since it is clear that Jesus Christ knew that not all would avail themselves of the fruits of redemption and that some would end up in Hell (Matthew 22:13, Luke 3:17).
No limits can be set on the value or power of the atonement which Christ made, since it depends upon and is measured by the one making it—Christ—and the value of His suffering was infinite. Therefore, the atonement was infinitely meritorious and might have saved every member of the human race had that been God's plan. The atonement was limited only in the sense that it was intended for, and is applied to, particular persons; namely for those who are actually saved.
We are almost in full agreement here. The only thing that I disagree with in the above is your claim that the atonement was
"intended for...particular persons". As I explained above, Jesus Christ died for all men, not just the elect or the faithful. The atonement intended to make salvation possible for all men, that is, it is a means by which any person may obtain salvation if they avail themselves of it's fruits. But it did not make salvation actual for all men, and in order for salvation to become actual for particular men, they must avail themselves of the fruits of the atonement.
Let's take a look at the following verse in Scripture:
"For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting." (John 3:16).
Notice the three elements we are dealing with here:
"the world", "whosoever believeth" and "may have life everlasting". This clearly refers to the universality of the atonement I mentioned above, which flows from God's love for the world, and it also refers to the applicability of the atonement to individual persons, which is contingent upon belief in Jesus Christ, the fruit of which, as it says, is life everlasting. The universality of the atonement is presupposed in the command to preach to the whole world (Matthew 28:19) and on the conditional words of Jesus Christ which he says what will happen to those who do and do not believe (Mark 16:16). It is also something that follows from God's infinite justice and mercy and which is implicitly alluded to by the constant claims that God will render to each according to their works.
If atonement makes salvation possible, it applies to all persons. If atonement effectively secures salvation, it has reference only the elect.
I would say that this is a false dichotomy. Here is another way to put it: The atonement makes salvation possible for all men and it effectively secures the salvation of those who avail themselves of it's fruits. The fact that only some avail themselves of it, does not reduces it's value anymore than the act of preaching to a group of persons loses it's value just because some and not all are converted. Also, remember that the atonement is sufficient as it relates to the Father, that is, it's value is independent of the fact that humans are saved or not. So, it doesn't matters whether some humans are saved, or wether none are saved, the value of the atonement remains the same. It's value cannot be increased nor decreased by any human act.
On Unconditional Election
1 Tim. 2:4 is referring to a particular class of men, the elect, for to assume otherwise is to imply universal salvation, yet we know that not all will be saved.
I believe that in answer to this particular comment, what I said above suffices. However, notice how St. Paul follows only two verses after that one:
"Who gave himself a redemption for all..." (1 Timothy 2:6). This verse, together with other verses cited above, make it clear that the atonement was made for all men without exception.
Those that reject he who comes, like Stephen, speaking in the prophets, are said to have resisted the Holy Spirit. Nowhere does this imply what you conclude to be the free will of the lost or their ability to cooperate in their salvation.
Well, as I have been saying, fallen man does has free will, it is just that without the help of God's grace, he is unable to do any supernatural good. He can however, do natural good or good proportionate to his fallen nature. He also has the ability to sin, and rejecting he who comes (in the case of Stephen). Resisting the Holy Spirit is a sin, so it is within the capacity of fallen man, and we could say, it is something that he is prone to do.
Scripture nowhere says that we are free in the sense of being outside of God’s sovereign control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. Unfortunately, this is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free. Nor does Scripture say anywhere that we are free in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God’s power.
We are in agreement when it comes to the fact that there is nothing that falls outside divine providence. And keeping in mind the distinction between natural and supernatural good we are also in agreement on the fact that fallen man can do no right apart from God's power. That is not to say that the natural good that fallen man can do, falls outside divine providence or outside God's power. For every good, by the mere fact of it being a good, has God as it's origin.
But, we are nonetheless free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free: we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions. We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus conclude that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices.
On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God’s providential control of all things, a freedom to be outside of God’s sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Jesus Christ is indeed continually carrying along things by his word of power (Heb. 1:3). If this is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist! An absolute freedom, totally free of God’s control, is simply not possible in a world providentially sustained and directed by God himself.
Here too, we are in agreement. Just as nothing can fall outside of divine providence, likewise, nothing can exist apart from God's sustaining power, as St. Paul says
"For in him we live, and move, and are" (Acts 17:28). Indeed, all that is owns it's being to God and nothing can exist apart from him.
God Bless,
Evo
