ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[scparmy]

Patman asked me in another forum to answer this question: "What bible verse says God knows the entire future."

I have no idea. That has absolutely nothing to do with your saying God doesn't know the future. God is omniscient, he knows the beginning from the end (how is that for a reference to scripture?). To know the beginning and the end, it is implied one must know the future. Didn't he provide future prophecies to those who prophesied on His behalf? I don't think it is debatable whether or not God knows the future. It is established that He knows everything. Saying God does not know the future is akin to saying God did not know that Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. He obviously knew, and the amazing thing is He still created them.

 

[Clete]

Patman asked me in another forum to answer this question: "What bible verse says God knows the entire future."

I have no idea. That has absolutely nothing to do with your saying God doesn't know the future.

It doesn't?
Which book do you use to formulate your theology?
You might like to know that Patman and I use the Bible and that alone to formulate our theology. If you have a different standard I think we'd both be interested to know what it is.

God is omniscient,

No, He isn't. Not in the sense you mean it, anyway.

he knows the beginning from the end (how is that for a reference to scripture?).

No so good, actually.
Not only is this not a quote of Scripture, the Bible itself is full of examples where God clearly did not know the end from the beginning.

To know the beginning and the end, it is implied one must know the future.

How so?

The last time I went on vacation, before I left I let my boss know that I would return to work one week from the following Monday, which I did.

I DECLARED the end from the beginning and then I worked to bring that declaration to pass. It was within my ability to pull it off and I did exactly that and did so without knowing the future or overcoming anyone's free will.

Didn't he provide future prophecies to those who prophesied on His behalf?

Are you talking about the prophesies that came to pass or the ones that did not? :think:

I don't think it is debatable whether or not God knows the future.

You haven't read much of this thread, have you?

It is established that He knows everything.

Established?

How?

Where?

Please present the argument, teaching, essay, article, debate or whatever it is that you believe has established that God has exhaustive foreknowledge.

Saying God does not know the future is akin to saying God did not know that Adam and Eve would sin before He created them.

Exactly!

He obviously knew, and the amazing thing is He still created them.

He obviously knew?

How so?

He clearly wasn't surprised by the event but that isn't at all the same as saying that He knew (i.e. with absolute certainty) that Adam and Eve would sin. What's obvious is that God told them not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and that they had both the ability and every opportunity to obey that command. What evidence do you have that this was not the case?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[patman]

Patman asked me in another forum to answer this question: "What bible verse says God knows the entire future."

I have no idea. That has absolutely nothing to do with your saying God doesn't know the future. God is omniscient, he knows the beginning from the end (how is that for a reference to scripture?). To know the beginning and the end, it is implied one must know the future. Didn't he provide future prophecies to those who prophesied on His behalf? I don't think it is debatable whether or not God knows the future. It is established that He knows everything. Saying God does not know the future is akin to saying God did not know that Adam and Eve would sin before He created them. He obviously knew, and the amazing thing is He still created them.

Scparmy,

I understand that you are new to Open Theism. But I ask you to please take a moment to reconsider everything you ever thought about the future and what it is. You asked "How is that for a reference to scripture?" Well, it is a very bad one. You did not quote one Bible verse.

You are going on the assumption that God has "created" the future, therefore it exists and is something God knows. But the future is unwritten. It is not a thing to exist nor is it something that can be known.

The only certain things about the future that God knows are things he has written, or decreed. These are things like "God will win" and "God will save we who trust him" or "God will cast Satan into Hell." God said he will do it, so you can mark it down as known future knowledge.

Even the Book of Life changes as time goes by. God can put names in and take them out as he sees fit.

All this that I say to you is directly from scripture. But your examples in your answer show that you haven't really looked into this. You are going on "hearsay" and have yet to really look this over yourself.

God actually didn't know that Adam and Eve would sin for certain. He made preparations incase they did, but God didn't create them knowing they would sin. Scripture actually says God was sorry he made humans after seeing the evil man is capable of. Did you know that?

Have a look at this verse:

Jeremiah 32:35
35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

God was speaking there. He never imagined that they would ever sacrifice their children to another god, yet here they are doing it. Don't you think that odd? How can someone who knows the entire future not know about these sacrifices before hand?

 

[godrulz]

People rightly wonder why God would create man knowing he was going to fall and ruin the planet. They feel this makes God responsible ultimately for evil for creating in this scenario.

In reality, love implies an equal possibility of evil. God knew of the possibility of man falling, but not the certainty of it. He knew it as certain when it became actual. He said creation was very good, but later was grieved and regretted making man. In no sense is He responsible for the fall since it was not a necessity, just a possibility that did not have to happen. He also had a potential provision in the event of the fall that was implement when it became reality, not before.

 

[patman]

I don't think it is debatable whether or not God knows the future.

Have you had a chance to look over these posts for you?

 

[elected4ever]

People rightly wonder why God would create man knowing he was going to fall and ruin the planet. They feel this makes God responsible ultimately for evil for creating in this scenario.

First off, Evil preexist man. Otherwise evil would not be there for man to choose.

We perceive evil as the antithesis of God. Evil does not always oppose God. It is evil that exposes the righteousness of God and the righteousness of God is not expressed in good and evil terms but is expressed in terms of His divine will. God knows good and evil and man could never be in the express image of God without this knowledge. If man had never ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil then man would never have know evil and would never have become like God in this respect. He would have remained like the rest of the animals and never have the ability to judge his actions for himself, remaining innocent in all his actions regardless if that action opposed God or not.

It might be said that the gaining of the knowledge of good and evil is the original sin, but it is not. The original sin is the opposition to the will of God regardless if the action taken is good or evil. In Adam, man has chosen to be in opposition to God so in Adam all men die because all men stand in opposition to God. Even when man does what is perceived to be a good thing, if it opposes the will of God it is sin.

 

[lee_merrill]

If it is unconditional, then who is the "you" in the passage?

Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites...

The nation of Israel, otherwise we have to say no one who heard this could die before it happened?

See here for such a usage:

Deuteronomy 12:28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.

"You" here clearly refers to the continuing nation of Israel.

You say it was unconditional, yet the "you" referenced here never saw this happen.

So this was a word the Lord had not spoken?

Just scroll up.

Links, please...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[patman]

The nation of Israel, otherwise we have to say no one who heard this could die before it happened?

See here for such a usage:

Deuteronomy 12:28 Be careful to obey all these regulations I am giving you, so that it may always go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is good and right in the eyes of the LORD your God.

"You" here clearly refers to the continuing nation of Israel.

That is rather broad. Who in the nation? The pre-david Israel, the post Jesus Israel, the pre-flood Israel ?

If it applies to the whole nation of all time, why does the other verse not apply?

Judges 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,

Why did God break his promise to stop driving out the nations?

 

[Clete]

First off, Evil preexist man. Otherwise evil would not be there for man to choose.

This is faulty logic.

Evil, in this context, does not exist ontologically but rather it is a concept.

Anything done contrary to God is evil, by definition. Therefore in order to choose evil, one only need act contrary to God. It is not evil that must exist for us to have a choice but merely the ability to do other than the good we know we should do. That is to say that good is not a negation of evil but the other way around, evil is a negation of the good, or more specifically, a negation of the godly.

It is my conviction, although it cannot be stated with certainty, that Lucifer's fall happened in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Adam and Eve, and thus evil did not preexist man.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Don't you think Satan came as a serpent before he tempted Adam/Eve? He may have fallen proximal to their Fall, but I don't think it was moments before or at the same time (otherwise he would go from Lucifer to angel of light or snake at the moment of tempting Adam...which is not what the narrative implies).

 

[lee_merrill]

If it applies to the whole nation of all time, why does the other verse not apply?

You may recall that I believe God did drive them out--this other verse certainly applies.

Judges 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,

Why did God break his promise to stop driving out the nations?

So that is a word the Lord did not speak?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. Read on after that Judges verse! He didn't break his promise, even based on just that passage.

 

[elected4ever]

This is faulty logic.

Evil, in this context, does not exist ontologically but rather it is a concept.

If this is true for evil then it is also true for good. It is just a concept and does not really exist ether. Then all that is left is existence. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that good and evil are substantiative.

Anything done contrary to God is evil, by definition. Therefore in order to choose evil, one only need act contrary to God. It is not evil that must exist for us to have a choice but merely the ability to do other than the good we know we should do. That is to say that good is not a negation of evil but the other way around, evil is a negation of the good, or more specifically, a negation of the godly.

Sense God knew good and evil and said that Adam became like us knowing good and evil I believe that good and evil preexisted man and was know by God before the creation of man. Good and evil exist today yet the animals do not know it. That is today so there is an example of good and evil being present and the animals are held innocent from the good and evil they may do.

It is my conviction, although it cannot be stated with certainty, that Lucifer's fall happened in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Adam and Eve, and thus evil did not preexist man.

Resting in Him,
Clete

That is the point of view of a good many people. It is certainly true for man because man did not become aware of good and evil until he ate the fruit. Adam could not have had a choice if there was not the existence of good and evil to choose. I guess that is my biggest objection to your conviction.

 

[Sharri]

curious, are there certain posts in this thread that refer to God knowing the end.

sorry, I didn't read the entire thread

 

[godrulz]

curious, are there certain posts in this thread that refer to God knowing the end.

sorry, I didn't read the entire thread

Isaiah 46 and 48 shows this, but they refer to specific things relating to captivity and cannot be extrapolated to exhaustive definite foreknowledge of all future free will contingencies. They also show how God declares end from beginning: it explictly says it is by His ability/power to declare and brings things to pass, not by a supposed foreknowledge concept.

I can predict I am going to work tonight because I have the ability to bring this to pass (foreknowledge does not make it happen, but will and ability do).

God knows reality as it is. He freely chose to create a reality that is partially open/unsettled (moral and mundane choices of free agents) and partially settled/closed (first and second coming of Christ, judgments, etc.).

The only way to have EDF is to settle everything in advance (omnicausal vs just omnicompetent). It is clear that He did not chose a deterministic world, but a free one. This means He can influence and intervene, but choses to not always do so. These contingencies and factors besides his will (the will of God is not monothetic, a Calvinistic error) result in a voluntary limitation of His future knowledge. He knows all that is knowable, but the future is not there yet to know as definite until potential choices are actualized in the present and become part of the fixed past (He knows the past and present exhaustively, but knows the future as partially settled and partially open=2 motifs in Scripture).

 

[patman]

You may recall that I believe God did drive them out--this other verse certainly applies.


So that is a word the Lord did not speak?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. Read on after that Judges verse! He didn't break his promise, even based on just that passage.

Do you really walk around believing two or three different/contradictory things at once Lee?

 

[scparmy]

This thread will be a continuation of the thread ARCHIVE: Open Theism pt. 1

Which at the time of this posting had 6,788 replies and almost 74,000 views! yet because of the size of the thread it had grown sluggish therefore we shut it down and opened part 2 here!

Enjoy and lets get back to the discussion!

The future.... is it completely settled in advance or open to an extent?

Knight, you know it is set. Everything was planned in eternity past. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost planned the creation, its existence, and outcome in the eternity past.

 

[scparmy]

Okay! I get the first official post on the new thread!

Let's (re)start with a question...

Did God hate Esau?

Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. Indeed He did..

 

[scparmy]

When did God hate Esau, before or after his birth?

In eternity past..

 

[godrulz]

Knight, you know it is set. Everything was planned in eternity past. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost planned the creation, its existence, and outcome in the eternity past.

A blueprint of omni/pancausal view is not biblical. It is a deterministic assumption contrary to Scripture. God has a project, but He is responsive, creative, not controllling. The warfare model is the one presented in Scripture.

God's overall plan was conceived by God, but much of what happens is contingent and macro vs micromanages. God rules providentially, not meticulously (tell me you do not impugn his character by saying he is responsible for evil and His own will being resisted).

 

[godrulz]

In eternity past..

Beyond the text...preconceived eisegesis.