ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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It is dangerous to have a closed mind that is impervious to truth; it is equally dangerous to be so open-minded that your brains fall out. Discernment and wisdom is what we need (teachable, yet with convictions).
themuzicman
Well-known member
These are not generic statements. They exist in a context, which clarifies what they mean. Most speak of God's faithfulness to His covenants.
Furthermore, prophecy is simply God proclaiming something He will bring about. Unless you think God isn't omnipotent, or cannot interact with His creation, it isn't an issue.
Muz
Philetus
New member
Convictions are interesting things. My great grandfather held to the conviction that 'black people' weren't human; my grandfather operated on the conviction that women shouldn't vote (or drive or work). My dad held to the conviction that if you really had faith your hair wouldn't grow over your ears. My son takes his brain out and plays with it all the time. Me? ... I'm just full of discernment and wisdom.
Some people aren't impervious to truth, they're just so full of it there isn't room for more. A good brain, like good theologies, needs a good shaking out every now and then, otherwise it becomes like concrete; thoroughly mixed and firmly set.
The world is flat ... again,
Philetus
I had a good friend in Michigan who built houses. Every time he finished a concrete basement floor, patio or slab he would exclaim, “The world is flat … again!
Okay, first of all, proof-texting does not equate to Scriptural support. I could respond to these passages in one of two ways. I could explain to you how they do not teach what you think they teach, which you would not buy and would get us nowhere, or I could give you a list of proof texts that directly contradict the point you are trying to make by giving me your list, which you would ignore and again we get nowhere. Proof-texting is a waste of time because the Bible can teach whatever you want it to teach. All that is required is for you to have the proper color of classes with which to read it through. The disparity between our positions isn't about proof-texts, its about paradigms.
Now, having said that I will respond to at least one of your proof-texts anyway (I'd do all three if I had the time.)...
This is terrific example of why proof-texting is simply foolish. Have you ever read the context of this passage? Where you aware that 5 verses later God says that He regretted having made Saul king over Israel? The passage is all about God changing His mind concerning Saul! The verse you quote is only saying that God is rejecting Saul and isn't going to change His mind about doing so. Here, read the text for yourself...
1 Samuel 15:24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD.”
26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.”
27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent.”
30 Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now, please, before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD your God.” 31 So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.
32 Then Samuel said, “Bring Agag king of the Amalekites here to me.” So Agag came to him cautiously.
And Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”
33 But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
34 Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house at Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.
26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.”
27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, “The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent.”
30 Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now, please, before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may worship the LORD your God.” 31 So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.
32 Then Samuel said, “Bring Agag king of the Amalekites here to me.” So Agag came to him cautiously.
And Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”
33 But Samuel said, “As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
34 Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house at Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.
So we have God regretting that He had made Saul king over Israel. That couldn't be clearer. Your position is to use this passage to say that God does not change His mind AT ALL. But God said that He would establish Saul's kingdom forever!
1 Samuel 13:13 And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. 14 But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.”
:think: Sounds to me like God changed His mind, doesn't it to you?
And this conclusion is born out of the very passage you quoted as a proof-text for your position!
As I said in my first response to you, there are things that God has predestined (Things like judgment day, the glorification of the Body of Christ, the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth, etc). Those things are not contingent on the actions of any free will agent and so can be specifically determined in advance by the Sovereign of the Universe. God is also fully aware of every detail of history and of present reality that He wants to be aware of and is infinitely intelligent, wise and competent and is thus able to very accurately predict and anticipate what men will do and basis much of prophesy on this knowledge and ability. Those prophesies, however, are contingent on the free will actions of men and so may not come to pass and indeed several have not come to pass for that exact reason.
I'm out of time.
For now read Jeremiah 18 for a direct explanation as to why a prophesy of God's may not come to pass and I'll leave it to one of the others here on this thread to give you a list of prophesies that did not happen as predicted.
Resting in Him,
Clete
patman
Active member
Justin, here are a few examples of prophecy that did not come to pass due to human freewill:
Most famous is Jonah and the Whale
Prophesied outcome:
Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
Actual Outcome:
Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
Prophesied outcome:
Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Actual Outcome:
Judges 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Judges 3:5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
Prophesied outcome:
Ezekiel 26: 7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD.
Actual Outcome:
Ezekiel 29:18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.
In addition, Tyre still stands to this day, 2500 years later. It has been rebuilt again and again.
Note this quote:
It was ... attacked by ... Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians.
Now read this verse:
Jeremiah 27:8
And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the LORD, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.
Apparently, the condition was meet when Tyre submitted in some form to Nebuchadnezzar. Plus a remnant of Jews were escaping to Egypt around this time, retrieving them became a priority to God over Tyre.
Other Verses:
Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Jesus is quoted saying this many times. He planed on returning VERY soon, as in with in a few years. He predicted it twice in the verses above. But it didn't happen, obviously. Here is an example of why:
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
Israel never did come to faith. Only a handful did. Jesus is still waiting to this day.
This is all connected to Daniel as well.
Daniel 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[.b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
When you treat the weeks as years, and do the math on the number of years, you can actually count the exact number of years between The order to rebuild Jerusalem until Christ's death. Then the prophecy states that another 7 years will pass before the end comes.
Everything in this prophecy came to pass, except for the end and the antichrist.
It was supposed to happen, and it didn't... not yet anyway. Why? Freewill. God allows these prophecies to be conditional based on freewill.
lee_merrill
New member
"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." (see Deuteronomy 18)
Freewill is no excuse here, for anyone could predict an outcome that depends only on them. That would not be a remarkable prophecy, or a special demonstration of divine power. God does make unconditional predictions involving free will, such as saying only a remnant will be saved.
Blessings,
Lee
P.S. For a reply to Jonah etc., see here.
So... you're saying that what God said would happen as demonstrated here in the Word of God wasn't prophecy?
lee_merrill
New member
Well, read my webby page! I believe they did happen, for instance, there aren't any Canaanites there now in Israel, or that there were implied and understood conditions.
Blessings,
Lee
I'm not going to read the web page. I can't post it here. Just give us the nutshell version.
For instance, that there aren't any Canaanites there now has nothing to do with that prophecy.
Besides that, are you saying that what God said would happen as demonstrated here in the Word of God wasn't prophecy when conditions were stated? If God said something would happen, it doesn't matter if conditions were stated.
lee_merrill
New member
God said they would be out, they're out.
Eh? Conditions being part of the statement means, well, conditions are present. So we can then examine unconditional prophecies, to see if God ever really changes his mind.
Blessings,
Lee
Actually, God said they would NOT be out, and they weren't. Here is what God said, again:
"Prophesied outcome:
Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Actual Outcome:
Judges 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Judges 3:5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites."
You don't realize that what you just said was: if God says something will happen and it doesn't then I don't count that. "Conditions being part of the statement means, well, conditions are present." is a MEANINGLESS statement.
It doesn't matter if there are conditions or not when God says something will happen.
patman
Active member
God also said he would not drive them out. Didn't you know that? So which one came to pass? The one where he said they would go away, or the one where they stick around to test them?
lee_merrill
New member
Both, of course. God didn't drive them out immediately, see the text, then he drove them out, see Palestine today. Let's not have closed minds.
patman
Active member
Both, of course. God didn't drive them out immediately, see the text, then he drove them out, see Palestine today. Let's not have closed minds.
I agree. Lets not have closed minds. If what you say is true, why can't Israel rebuild the temple if the land is truly their own? So what if one or two of those peoples are gone now, wasn't the prophecy to give those people the entire promise land? Yet today that still hasn't happened.
Our point is this prophecy did not come to pass as stated, even by God's own admission. God clearly changed his mind about how, for who and when this prophecy would happen.
lee_merrill
New member
Because they are not yet fully God's own yet? They have to obey God, you know, to inherit the fullness of the promise, that would include acknowledging God's Messiah.
Yes, and I believe this will be at the time when "all Israel will be saved." But how could this salvation be known, what, these people mentioned as "all Israel" have no choice?
So then that is a word the Lord had not spoken?
"If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18)
Blessings,
Lee
patman
Active member
Not that you'll listen, but again God's prophecies are conditional at times. So long as conditions are met, they come about. If the conditions are not met, God has the option to withdraw his well wishes (or doom saying).
God intended the prophecy in question to be for that particular group of people alive 3000 years ago. They are long gone, the prophecy intended for them never was realized... God has a standing promise that he'll keep working with their children until they get it right.
You are trying to align two unrelated passages. You have been told this many times, I am not going to go over it again. You should realize easily that God's prophecy to those people was not fulfilled. They died with it being unfulfilled. You unreasonably try to make up any reason you can, no matter how farfetched. But because you cant accept the possibility that God changed his mind due to an open future, you have no other resort.
lee_merrill
New member
I agree, my question is about unconditional prophecies, does God ever change his mind in these?
"I will surely drive them out" sounds to me unconditional. So then this was a word the Lord had not spoken?
I don't recall this, can you provide links to references where I have been told this? Thanks.
Blessings,
Lee
patman
Active member
If it is unconditional, then who is the "you" in the passage? Here it is again:
Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
You say it was unconditional, yet the "you" referenced here never saw this happen.
Just scroll up.
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