ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Varangian

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You totally underestimate God's great ability. It is a bad parent who controls a child rather than raises them to make responsible choices (the parent will not always be around).

Do you realize how utterly absurd this analogy is? Firstly, if your child is murdering people would you stop them or just chide them occassionally and hope they'd learn to make more responsible choices? And the second part is even more aburd because, intentionally or not, you're implying there's a time a when God won't be around.

God does allow many things, but they are contrary to his will (warfare vs blueprint model). In your view, God's character is impugned as an evildoer.

Quite the contrary it is OT which renders God's allowance of evil utterly immoral. When we as humans see evil taking place and fail to act, we are being immoral. The only thing that allows God to refrain from acting in such situations is because He can see what the ultimate consquences of any given action and decide to act or refrain from acting based on which will bring about the greater good. Remove foreknowledge from God and His all inaction in the face of evil becomes without moral justification.

In my view, He judges, opposes, mitigates, and allows evil.

But in your view he allows it for no good reason as He is unable to judge what the outcome of such evil will be.

There is no good from a child being raped and murdered. Don't you dare try to comfort the grieving parent with Calvinistic nonsense. God did not take the child home; an evil person killed them prematurely. There are good answers for the problem of evil apart from hyper-Calvinism. Theodicy cannot be resolved by trying to negate God-given free will.

Quite the contrary there is absolutely no good answer for the existence of evil apart from God allowing it to bring about some greater good. Trying to elevate free will to having some sort of monumental ethical importance is one of weakest and most pathetic Theodicies concieved of by man. You deride finding solace in the concept of God allowing the death of a child to accomplish some greater good but offer up nothing in it's place except a God allows such deaths for no reason whatsoever.
 
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themuzicman

Well-known member
I'm still not quite grasping your logic here (forgive please).

I am not seeing why you didn't have a choice. It wasn't that you couldn't have worn the other shirt, it is just that I knew which one you did choose before you chose it.

Well, there's a potential of an equivocation, here. There's the "I knew" meaning, "I was pretty sure that you'd do X", and there's "I knew" meaning, "I have a factual basis for knowing that that you'd do X." EDF means the latter.

If the fact of my choice exists before I supposedly make the decision, then I cannot choose freely, since choosing not to do it is no longer possible.

I'm not sure if it was you, but let me float this scenario again and you can help me through your reasoning process.

You wore a yellow shirt that said "I'm with stupid." I took offense as you stood next to me and the arrow was pointed at me. You said, "No way. I don't even remember owning a shirt like that."

Well, I'd snapped a picture and promised I didn't doctor it. There you were standing next to me with the pointing arrow.

Any number of things could explain the shirt: wore your brother's by mistake, dressed in the dark.

What matters is I was right and you were incorrect. It doesn't mean I had anything at all to do with your decision, even though you were wrong and I am correct. It doesn't give me any kind of power over you that I'm right.
In effect, my knowledge didn't effect your choice at all.​

I agree. However, the fact of my decision was established by my choice, and the factual knowledge followed my choice.

How is this different than EDF where God knows (not the same but similarly)? Of course, I believe He ordains (allows) it to take place, but I'm not seeing how you are seeing this as deterministic with no choice on your part.

Because the facts of my decisions are already established. They are set in stone, and unchangeable. In fact, those facts are actualized before creation, before I could have existed. Regardless of how, it is the original source of the foreknowledge that ultimately winds up being the deterministic factor.

Muz
 

Lon

Well-known member
Well, there's a potential of an equivocation, here. There's the "I knew" meaning, "I was pretty sure that you'd do X", and there's "I knew" meaning, "I have a factual basis for knowing that that you'd do X." EDF means the latter.

If the fact of my choice exists before I supposedly make the decision, then I cannot choose freely, since choosing not to do it is no longer possible.



I agree. However, the fact of my decision was established by my choice, and the factual knowledge followed my choice.



Because the facts of my decisions are already established. They are set in stone, and unchangeable. In fact, those facts are actualized before creation, before I could have existed. Regardless of how, it is the original source of the foreknowledge that ultimately winds up being the deterministic factor.

Muz

This is always an interesting argument to me. How could we possibly know what it does when we don't even know how it is possible or how it would work? My analogies are best guesses but I don't see that I didn't have a choice. Rather, with the same logic that makes me realize when I ate pizza last night, I now have no choice in that matter. I rather concede the point than try to argue for or against it.

We choose things in a pretty deterministic way and I believe God not only can, but does know, like a movie already made: It didn't stop the director from getting what he wanted on film, but it, like the past is a done deal. I don't see anything more deterministic in EDF than a made film. The choices are all made. More like a person who has seen the movie, seeing it again with me. It is new to me, not to him (again, I can only elude to the truth here with such an analogy).

As with GR, I've listed scriptures that have you agreeing that in many cases God is quite deterministic and intervenes with freewill. If you take the Josiah prediction, either God foreknew (and I'm pretty sure you are a rare OVer here and agree this is the case) or God invasively determined and made it happen that Manasseh had a grandchild named Josiah who removed the altars to foreign gods.
God is either entirely 'invasive,' as I believe from passages like those below and Colossians 1, or it is intermittent involvement and deterministic much more akin to what you dislike and misunderstand about Calvinist doctrine (hyper).

Gen 50:15 When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph bears a grudge and wants to repay us in full for all the harm we did to him?"
Gen 50:16 So they sent word to Joseph, saying, "Your father gave these instructions before he died:
Gen 50:17 'Tell Joseph this: Please forgive the sin of your brothers and the wrong they did when they treated you so badly.' Now please forgive the sin of the servants of the God of your father." When this message was reported to him, Joseph wept.
Gen 50:18 Then his brothers also came and threw themselves down before him; they said, "Here we are; we are your slaves."
Gen 50:19 But Joseph answered them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant to harm me, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could preserve the lives of many people, as you can see this day.

Rom 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings.
Rom 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God's will.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose,
Rom 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
This is always an interesting argument to me. How could we possibly know what it does when we don't even know how it is possible or how it would work? My analogies are best guesses but I don't see that I didn't have a choice. Rather, with the same logic that makes me realize when I ate pizza last night, I now have no choice in that matter. I rather concede the point than try to argue for or against it.

However, before last night, you did.

We choose things in a pretty deterministic way and I believe God not only can, but does know, like a movie already made: It didn't stop the director from getting what he wanted on film, but it, like the past is a done deal. I don't see anything more deterministic in EDF than a made film. The choices are all made.

Then you're stuck with the problem of evil and the inability to Scripturally describe wrath and justification.

As with GR, I've listed scriptures that have you agreeing that in many cases God is quite deterministic and intervenes with freewill. If you take the Josiah prediction, either God foreknew (and I'm pretty sure you are a rare OVer here and agree this is the case) or God invasively determined and made it happen that Manasseh had a grandchild named Josiah who removed the altars to foreign gods.
It is either entirely invasive and controlling as I believe, or it is intermittent involvement and difficult to say how much.

I do think that God intervenes in things that do not involve free will. A certain DNA combination is released into a female egg. A certain sperm cell reaches and penetrates the egg first. That new human is protected throughout his life, and certain events with that nurturing create an individual with a particular personality who will tend to do certain things. And, at the right moment, God intervenes to give an individual a mission for which they have been prepared to accept and execute. And all without violating free will.

God or an angel can appear to people to influence their actions using their religious traditions.

None of these things violate the free will of an individual, but all have the fingerprints of God's actions upon them. God's actions in Isaac's birth are another example. He enabled Sarah to conceive and give birth without violating her free will.

Once you give up the determinist mindset, a multitude of other possible means for God to accomplish His purposes appear.

Muz
 

Vaquero45

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The only thing that allows God to refrain from acting in such situations is because He can see what the ultimate consquences of any given action and decide to act or refrain from acting based on which will bring about the greater good.

One could honestly replace "greater good" with "lesser evil" in your statement there and then the problem of evil comes stomping into the room and grabs a chair on the settled side, like it always does in this debate.


Remove foreknowledge from God and His all inaction in the face of evil becomes without moral justification. But in your view he allows it for no good reason as He is unable to judge what the outcome of such evil will be.

For true relationship to exist, the choice to hate must exist. for any of His creation to be deemed righteous there has to be the choice to be unrighteous. (and yes I see the trap... righteous by grace thru faith of course, :) ) What does justice mean if the thing judged has no ability to chose? If God intervened in all evil, evil would have no consequence. We could ignore/abuse our kids, be as lazy as we please. Do any crazy thing that comes to mind and God jumps in to fix it? How could that ever make sense?

Your insistance on God's total foreknowledge logically requires that He planned all evil, unless you can logically account for the workings of a crystal ball. Everything God claims to want us to be becomes meaningless if God planned everything and all judgements of us actually have nothing to do with choices we made. We would be no more accountable for our sin than a bomb made in a factory.



Quite the contrary there is absolutely no good answer for the existence of evil apart from God allowing it to bring about some greater good.

Your use of the term "allowing" suggests God can actually react to something. Welcome to the Open View. And again, "greater good" suggests a wink at evil if God knows the entire future and is therefore completely in control.
 

godrulz

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So, is it possible to have certain knowledge about uncertain things?

You confuse contingent, certain, and necessary.

You are talking contradiction now. God can have certain knowledge if He brings it to pass. He cannot have certain knowledge if our choices are contingent and yet future (non-existent).

"Nowhere in God's Word does it declare that an actual future preexists as an object of knowledge for God. On the contrary, there are many references to God not knowing the future choices of human beings.

Thus, if we do not presuppose the timelessness and absolute foreknowledge of God, we avoid this futile struggle to integrate the foreknowledge of God with the free will of man (rulz- determinists simply deny libertarian free will; Arminians simply assume SFK without being able to explain it coherently). Man is free and able to create any number of potential futures as he cooperates with God to determine His own destiny."

- Michael Saia "Does God know the future?"
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
What does justice mean if the thing judged has no ability to chose?


If creatures were just, there would be not need for judicial judgement.

If creatures were just, they would be sinless and perfect.

Like God.

But creatures cannot ever be equal with God; which the Law has demonstrated.

Therefore, Godly justice becomes necessary in order to overcome creaturely limitations (which has nothing to do with creature choices at all.)

God chose to exercise justice through His Son, in order that creatures might be made fit to share in the inheritance of glory with Christ.

God created man under the Law and never gave man permission to do other than what His commands demanded. Man failed to submit to God's Word, displaying the necessity for God to provide a Savior in order that some might thereby live justly in the eyes of God.

All this talk about freedom to act differently, is a humanistic and philosophical intrusion upon the Word of God.

Nang
 

Vaquero45

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If creatures were just, there would be not need for judicial judgement.

If creatures were just, they would be sinless and perfect.

Like God.

But creatures cannot ever be equal with God; which the Law has demonstrated.

Therefore, Godly justice becomes necessary in order to overcome creaturely limitations (which has nothing to do with creature choices at all.)

God chose to exercise justice through His Son, in order that creatures might be made fit to share in the inheritance of glory with Christ.

God created man under the Law and never gave man permission to do other than what His commands demanded. Man failed to submit to God's Word, displaying the necessity for God to provide a Savior in order that some might thereby live justly in the eyes of God.

All this talk about freedom to act differently, is a humanistic and philosophical intrusion upon the Word of God.

Nang

If creatures were just, there would be not need for judicial judgement.

What's wrong with this sentence... anyone?
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I dont think you understood the question Nang. Thanks tho.
 

Varangian

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One could honestly replace "greater good" with "lesser evil" in your statement there and then the problem of evil comes stomping into the room and grabs a chair on the settled side, like it always does in this debate.

They could replace it, but then they'd be talking about something else. "Greater good" and "lesser evil" are synonymns.

For true relationship to exist, the choice to hate must exist. for any of His creation to be deemed righteous there has to be the choice to be unrighteous. (and yes I see the trap... righteous by grace thru faith of course, :) ) What does justice mean if the thing judged has no ability to chose?

Who says there is no ability to choose? Every day everyone of us makes choices. Now, I'm going to go ahead and assume here you're talking about this in relation to the increasingly poorly titled doctrine of Total Depravity.

Like with many other more difficult theological concepts it's important that it be addressed with precision or else serious misunderstanding can result. I'll hit upon a basic distinction that must be made here and go further into it if you want to converse further on the subject.

Calvinism makes a distinction between man's natural ability and his moral ability. When we say that all men are sinners, it is not to say that all men must sin, but rather that all men will sin. Which is to say that man possesses the natural ability to do good, but without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit he will not possess the moral inclination to do so and so will remain dead in his sins.

If God intervened in all evil, evil would have no consequence. We could ignore/abuse our kids, be as lazy as we please. Do any crazy thing that comes to mind and God jumps in to fix it? How could that ever make sense?

Sure it would. An omnipetent God could intervene in each every case assuring that while evil was certainly punished that it's affects and consquences were limited to the people who committed the evil acts and that it didn't those who were innocent of those acts.

But He doesn't do that, and so we must deal with the problem of why evil is allowed, and to this question the OV can present no real solutions of why a man must suffer, not for merely his own evil, but also for the evil of others.

Your insistance on God's total foreknowledge logically requires that He planned all evil, unless you can logically account for the workings of a crystal ball.

Any theological system which retains an omnipotent God must deal with precisely the same issues. Even if you don't believe God knew that the holocaust would've taken place from the foundations of the world, you're still left with a God who heard it planned, saw the gas chambers and ovens built and yet still chose not to intervene. The difference remains that with foreknowledge we can actually present a morally justifiiable, if extremely painful, reason for why this was allowed it to happen, while without it an omnipotent God stands without any sort of justification for His inaction.

Everything God claims to want us to be becomes meaningless if God planned everything and all judgements of us actually have nothing to do with choices we made. We would be no more accountable for our sin than a bomb made in a factory.

God knew is not precisely the same thing as God planned.

Let me see if I can put this into an anology, albeit an imperfect one, where it makes more sense.

I know the sun is coming up tommorrow at a certain time , and I know I need for it to be light outside before I go out. So tommorrow, I will wait to for that time before I go out. This is the same sense in which God knows many events are going to take place, and makes His plans accordingly. However using that exact example, because God is omnipetent to be consistent we must acknowledge that He could also have simply prevented the sun from coming up or made it up come up at a different time etc, and therefore (despite the fact it would arise with or without His direct intervention) we still must say that when the sun rises it is due to it being God's will. To say that any event takes place which contrary to God's will, when spoken of in this sense, is a tacit denial of His omnipotence.
 

godrulz

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Do you realize how utterly absurd this analogy is? Firstly, if your child is murdering people would you stop them or just chide them occassionally and hope they'd learn to make more responsible choices? And the second part is even more aburd because, intentionally or not, you're implying there's a time a when God won't be around.



Quite the contrary it is OT which renders God's allowance of evil utterly immoral. When we as humans see evil taking place and fail to act, we are being immoral. The only thing that allows God to refrain from acting in such situations is because He can see what the ultimate consquences of any given action and decide to act or refrain from acting based on which will bring about the greater good. Remove foreknowledge from God and His all inaction in the face of evil becomes without moral justification.



But in your view he allows it for no good reason as He is unable to judge what the outcome of such evil will be.



Quite the contrary there is absolutely no good answer for the existence of evil apart from God allowing it to bring about some greater good. Trying to elevate free will to having some sort of monumental ethical importance is one of weakest and most pathetic Theodicies concieved of by man. You deride finding solace in the concept of God allowing the death of a child to accomplish some greater good but offer up nothing in it's place except a God allows such deaths for no reason whatsoever.


The parental analogy is limited, but helpful. It contrasts controlling people with guiding people. It preserves love, freedom, relationship, responsibility, something your view does not. God will always be around, so like a parable, don't press every detail (you miss the forest for the trees).

God is infinite intelligence so it is a straw man assumption to say that God cannot judge possible outcomes of evil. The Open view does not underestimate God's great character and attributes, so don't put words in our mouth do to your lack of understanding of the view and its implications.

Issues of love, freedom, relationship, responsibility are factors in a cogent theodicy. An omnicausal approach is more problematic in that it calls evil good and good evil and makes a holy God ultimately responsible for it. God does not always intervene for various reasons. To think it is a higher good as the only reason is simplistic. The issues for the Moral Governor of the universe are more complex, but we can trust His wisdom and ultimate justice. If allowing the rape of one child is arbitrarily for a higher good, then the same should apply to all kids?! It is a higher good for a child to not be raped and murdered. Anything else is contrary to God's will (yes, by His sovereign choice, He allows creatures freedom to choose contrary to His will, but not without ultimate consequences and justice). Your view cannot explain why it is good for Tommy to not be killed, but it is OK for Sue to be killed (regardless of whether from an atheistic or theistic family).

For an alternative to deterministic nonsense:

http://www.amazon.com/Satan-Problem-Evil-Constructing-Trinitarian/dp/0830815503

(click search inside for contents)
 

godrulz

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Back to free will and foreknowledge (Michael Saia):

1. God knows a future choice will certainly take place.

2. To be an object of knowledge, the choice must actually exist.

3. If the choice exists, it had to have a cause.

4. God is not the cause of the choice (rejecting the absolute predestination of all events).

5. A human will is not the cause of the choice (the human who makes the choice exists in the present, but not the future).

6. The cause of the choice, whatever that cause is, produced only one, absolutely certain effect-the choice.

7. Causes which produce only one effect with absolute certainty are necessary causes.

8. So, the choice happens of necessity.

9. Necessity is the opposite of contingency.

10. The choice is not contingent, so the choice is not free.
 

Varangian

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The parental analogy is limited, but helpful. It contrasts controlling people with guiding people. It preserves love, freedom, relationship, responsibility, something your view does not. God will always be around, so like a parable, don't press every detail (you miss the forest for the trees).

And God is not a person so the analogy is useless. There are many, many things which are perfectly righteous for God, but would be immoral for a man. For example, God can decide who and under what circumstances a person may be put to death, for a man to make such a decision on his own would be immoral.

God is infinite intelligence so it is a straw man assumption to say that God cannot judge possible outcomes of evil. The Open view does not underestimate God's great character and attributes, so don't put words in our mouth do to your lack of understanding of the view and its implications.

Go for it then. If I'm misrepresenting you, then don't just complain, have a go at explaining it yourself. And not in vauge terms. Take on precisely what was brought up in this thread and explain how, from within the OV, God's inaction in the face of the atrocity of Holocaust is justifiable.

God does not always intervene for various reasons. To think it is a higher good as the only reason is simplistic.

Wait a sec. Are you actually saying that God chooses to intervene or not intervene in ways that will not bring about the greater good?


If allowing the rape of one child is arbitrarily for a higher good, then the same should apply to all kids?!

Are you really this obtuse or do you just possess absolutely no understanding of the complicated nature of cause and affect in the material world?

It is a higher good for a child to not be raped and murdered.

It is never good for any sinful act to take place. However, allowing a given act to take place may lead to a chain of events that ultimately represent a greater good than the chain of events that would result from preventing it. Only a God with exhaustive foreknowledge though can make this sort of judgement. Once you've stripped that away, God's inaction in face of such evil becomes evil itself.

Your view cannot explain why it is good for Tommy to not be killed, but it is OK for Sue to be killed (regardless of whether from an atheistic or theistic family).

The actual act itself is never good. The ultimate chain of events started by the act though may represent a greater good. Do you really not understand this distinction?
 

godrulz

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Yeah. Talk about nonsense. Just more of the same from Boyd, who should be writing scripts for Hollywood. :dizzy:

Have I told you I love you yet, today?

(I was going to say 'I love you too', but I had a check about that one).

I have only read 1/2 the book, but so far, so good and coherent.

I am not sure I would endorse the prequel "God at war" (it does sound more Hollywood, as I mentioned on the other thread).
 

godrulz

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Thomas: God is a person, but not a mere human. He is personal, not impersonal. God governs inanimate creation by a law of cause-effect, animate creation by instinct, but moral creation by a law of love and freedom (don't mix categories or we become machines instead of the Imago Dei).

An act is inherently good or evil. One cannot say it is good from God's perspective but evil from man's perspective.

It would always be a higher good to stop evil. In both our views, God does not always do so. This does not explain why identical acts are rarely stopped by God. He rarely strikes people dead before they are about to rape or murder. To assume He does not do so for a higher good is a stretch. The higher good would be to stop death (the thief comes to kill, destroy; Jesus comes to give abundant life, the opposite; don't say God is the evildoer for a higher good?!).

Foreknowledge offers no providential advantage since God would lack the ability to change the future. Ability and intelligence, not EDforeknowledge, is why God is able to mitigate things.
 

Varangian

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It would always be a higher good to stop evil. In both our views, God does not always do so. This does not explain why identical acts are rarely stopped by God. He rarely strikes people dead before they are about to rape or murder. To assume He does not do so for a higher good is a stretch.

It is not a stretch at all to say that God allows evil to achieve a greater good. It is, in fact, the only possible moral justification for it.
 

godrulz

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It is not a stretch at all to say that God allows evil to achieve a greater good. It is, in fact, the only possible moral justification for it.

True sometimes, but not normatively. There is also gratuitous evil, a consequence of a non-risk free, non-deterministic creation.

Who is your avatar? Calvin? What branch of Reformed are you? Are you like AMR?

http://www.amazon.com/Arminian-Theology-Realities-Roger-Olson/dp/0830828419

Are either of you familiar with this? I find Calvinism misrepresents (see table of contents search inside) Arminianism and Open Theism. I like this Baptist because he shows that we also affirm Reformational truths.
 

Varangian

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Who is your avatar? Calvin?

Theodore Beza


What branch of Reformed are you?

Could you be a bit more specific with what you're asking here?

Are you like AMR?

In what sense? Discussion wise we've generally only interacted in threads regarding pretty basic 5-point Calvinism, and we've generally been in agreement there. I'm not really familiar with the specifics of his theology in other areas so I can't really comment as to agreement or disagreement in them.

Past that we come from extremely different theological backgrounds and are fairly seperated in age. I also tend more towards clove ciggarettes and Jameson where his bio says he prefers cigars and single-barrel Jack. :D
 

Varangian

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Are either of you familiar with this? I find Calvinism misrepresents (see table of contents search inside) Arminianism and Open Theism. I like this Baptist because he shows that we also affirm Reformational truths.

I'm somewhat familiar with Theodore Wilson having read "20th-Century Theology: God and the World in a Transitional Age" which he co-authored with Stanley Grenz.

The book you've pointed out though has absolutely nothing to do with Open Theism.
 
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