ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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themuzicman

Well-known member
All that means is that all possible courses of the future, based upon God's actions, included Jesus going and dying. That doesn't mean that there was only one possible course of the future to get there.

Muz
 

RobE

New member
There is a steak in my freezer and steak sounds kind of good for dinner. I just bought some more BBQ briquettes. Yet going to Chipotle sounds intriguing as well. Fish tacos? :vomit:

I wonder what God can determine from this knowledge.

We'll it's not what's in your freezer that counts. The question is 'Does God know you personally and completely?'

A 'yes' response would mean that He would know what you desire/want and therefore what you would choose from the freezer.

:think:
 

RobE

New member
This came up in another thread a couple of months ago. I cited Matthew 26 as evidence of God's foreknowledge of even what others would do out of their own free will, and the answer I got was basically "God can know what someone is going to do, but that's not foreknowledge."

Okay.....

Matthew 26 is very telling in this debate.

Jesus foretells of his death.....

1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, 2 “You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.”

Judas decides to betray....

14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver Him to you?” And they counted out to him thirty pieces of silver. 16 So from that time he sought opportunity to betray Him.

...after the foretelling.

Jesus foretells Peter's actions....

31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:


‘ I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’[d]

32 But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.”
33 Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.”
34 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.”

Now from the open deist position, God would have to interfere with free will to manipulate the events which would come about.:nono:

Is this correct?
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
We'll it's not what's in your freezer that counts. The question is 'Does God know you personally and completely?'

A 'yes' response would mean that He would know what you desire/want and therefore what you would choose from the freezer.

:think:


This is proximal knowledge. There was not a 'you', a freezer, food, etc. trillions of years ago, so God would not know as a certainty what you would chose because your desires, needs, wants at that future point in history are not freely developed and are not a possible object of knowledge, even for an omniscient God.

It would also be possible for you to have a sudden stroke or heart attack and die before you got to eat, changing the potential future.

The future is not fixed like the past. God could know to a high probabilty what you may or may not do, based on perfect past and present knowledge, but a contingent choice could still be out of character at the last second. Possibility is not actuality (until the future becomes the past through the present).
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Now from the open deist position, God would have to interfere with free will to manipulate the events which would come about.:nono:

Is this correct?

Deism has a false, aloof god who does not intervene.

Open Theism affirms God's transcendence, but also emphasizes His immanence. He can and does intervene as needed, but not always.

Using the pejorative deism about a theistic, biblical view is not called for. God is not a big guy in the sky who winds things up and then let's them fall apart as He watches. He settles some vs all of the future. He is a personal God who creates men in His personal image, including genuine, but not unlimited freedom.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
I would think that Deism is closer to Calvinism (winding up history an letting it go), than OVT. OVT requires a God who is active in responding to the course of history as it unfolds, so that He will bring about His purposes.

Muz
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
This came up in another thread a couple of months ago. I cited Matthew 26 as evidence of God's foreknowledge of even what others would do out of their own free will, and the answer I got was basically "God can know what someone is going to do, but that's not foreknowledge."

Okay.....

If I buy a plane ticket bound for Denver and the plane departs at 2PM next week, is it hard to predict that the stewardess will serve me a soda on the flight and that I will arrive in Denver next week?
 
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Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
We'll it's not what's in your freezer that counts. The question is 'Does God know you personally and completely?'

A 'yes' response would mean that He would know what you desire/want and therefore what you would choose from the freezer.

:think:

True but that doesn't mean it was determined what I would do eons ago before I existed. I have a will and a will is the ability to do otherwise.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
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LIFETIME MEMBER
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Using the pejorative deism about a theistic, biblical view is not called for.
Oh, please, stop! This coming from the robo-master of pejorative lingo. You dish it out, you must take it, too.:think:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Oh, please, stop! This coming from the robo-master of pejorative lingo. You dish it out, you must take it, too.:think:

There is a difference between making a reasonable, defensible statement and a slur that is not accurate. Likewise, just because there is one similarity, but many differences between Open Theism and Process thought, does not mean they are the same view or influenced by each other (cats and elephants have 4 legs, but they are not identical).

Most posters here make one or two sentence assertions all the time. Go pick on them.

I can take it, but not lying down if there is a misrepresentation.

God is love. Can I make that assertion without getting your feathers up? If someone says that God is not love, then I can make the opposite assertion without a long post.

When you become moderator, then you can police and nit pick.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
But let us not forget the unsettled theist's own linkages here.


Is 'unsettled theist' pejorative also? You complain about short posts. You better read this one.

Open Theists believe creation is partially open/unsettled and partially closed/settled.

This does not unsettle a sovereign, omnicompetent God who can providentially control without meticulous control.

Sproul wrongly assumes that God must have unilateral control to be sovereign. If He does not, he even says He cannot be God?!

(paraphrases/thoughts from Boyd "Satan and the problem of evil" p. 147)

Why should we accept this understanding of divine sovereignty? There is no rational or biblical reason to assume that sovereignty must or should entail exhaustive, meticulous, divine control. Why would God cease to be God (Sproul's assumption) because He decided to created something He did not meticulously control?

This view restricts God's omnipotence to one possible mode of behavior: unilateral control. God must control everything in order to exist?! Cmon, Sproul and AMR. Why should we assume this is the most exalted, let alone the only conceivable, form of sovereignty?

Can we not conceive of a God who is so great (omnicompetent vs omnicausal...I like that) that he dares to create agents who can, to some extent, make autonomous decisions (significant others with a say-so, as Sanders says). Can we not conceive of a God who might choose to experience risk, adventure, novelty, change?

Scripture says that God experiences surprise and disappointment. This fits a providential, warfare vs blueprint model and takes revelation at face value. Can we imagine God growing tired of controlling or simply foreknowing everything in meticulous detail from all eternity? Does this make it possible for Him to respond better than simply based on His great character and attributes? We are in the image of God and desire novelty, risk, adventure. Why should we limit God to fatalistic, fixed boredom?

Sovereignty as control is unwarranted and not true sovereignty. It is hard to conceive of a weaker God than one who would be threatened by events by puny man outside of His direct control. It is difficult to imagine a less majestic view of God than one who is necessarily limited to a unilateral, deterministic mode of relating to the universe (which view is limiting God and underestimating His great ability and seeing things through the image of man? watch your accusations, AMR. Your view of God is actually a lesser view than OT). Sproul insists that God could not create a world with some openness, novelty, adventure, even if He wanted to. This is not a contradiction like exhaustive foreknowledge and free will. It is an unusually ignorant statement to say God would cease to be God if He created a world that was not hyper-sovereign and deterministic?! Power is about choices. A wrong view robs God of choice and omnipotence.

A view that says God cannot be God without exhaustive definite foreknowledge also limits God (necessary attribute). The idea of a partially open future is not a logical contradiction. This is the type of world God actualized (unless you make this motif figurative, without warrant), so the corollary is that EDF is not possible, even for an omniscient God. So, you beg the question to assume God must have EDF and must create a deterministic universe, despite the evidence to the contrary (theodicy ring a bell)?

It is not a supremely praiseworthy form of sovereignty to be a control freak, nor is it necessary for God to bring His sovereign purposes to pass. Even if God just chose to be this way, it is still not meritorious. I have absolute power over my little finger, but this does not make me praiseworthy on this basis. God could control everything if He wanted to, since it is His creation, just as my finger is my finger and I could control it. Apply this to a human ruler over subjects or parents over children. Love, freedom, and relationship are to be valued over raw control, a sign of weakness and insecurity.

There is nothing instrinsically praiseworthy about sheer power. Praise has to do with character.

** "What is praiseworthy about God's sovereignty is not that He exercises a power He obviously has but that out of His character He does NOT exercise all the power He could."

This is a voluntary self-limitation by the sovereign God to have love vs robotic relationships, not reducing God to man's image (finite godism/Process is NOT OT).

Our understanding of God is analogically rooted in our experience. What kind of sovereignty do we normally admire? Hitler, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Mugabe or a democratic view that does not undermine authority and freedom? Do we praise leaders who must control other people to always get their way, or do we see them as insecure, weak, and manipulative? Conversely, do we not admire leaders who influence others by the respect that their character earns more than those who control others through coercion? We admire leaders who influence and empower others, not control them like robots. The capacity for reciprocal relationships is indicative of love and power, not a compromise of sovereignty.

Rejecting a wrong view of sovereignty is not rejecting God's greatness and glory.

Prior to Augustine, the early church theologians also denied omni-controlling and implied it was a denial of biblical sovereignty. They all agreed that there was no coercion in God. They argue that control is akin to pagan fatalism. Athenagoras said that God exercises a universal and general providence of the whole. Origen (who is wrong about other things) said that God's governance is one that is consistent with the preservation of freedom of will in rational creatures (by God's sovereign choice, not an elevation of free will above God's will). Omnicausality denies that God regulates all things, undermining biblical sovereignty.
 

Philetus

New member
vs Unmoved Mover of Calvinism and Greek Philosophy

Pinnock's book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Most-Moved-Mover-Theology-Openness/dp/0801022908

(it is more about the openness of God's creation, not of God).

Pinnock's book or OVT "is more about the openness of God's creation, not of God?"
You have made that statement several times. (That's OK.) But, I think you need to flesh it out a little. What is meant by it?
Can you really have one without the other? Can creation be unsettled in any aspect that doesn't affect the traditional (classical) view of God and His exercise of sovereignty in some way or other?

(Excellent post above, by the way.)
 

RobE

New member
Originally Posted by RobE
We'll it's not what's in your freezer that counts. The question is 'Does God know you personally and completely?'

A 'yes' response would mean that He would know what you desire/want and therefore what you would choose from the freezer.

True but that doesn't mean it was determined what I would do eons ago before I existed. I have a will and a will is the ability to do otherwise.

You're right. My point is that His foreknowledge of what you would eat doesn't take away your ability to do otherwise when choosing your dinner.

His knowledge of you(and your ancestors) doesn't inhibit your actions in any way unless you want to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics to twist the truth.
 

RobE

New member
This is proximal knowledge. There was not a 'you', a freezer, food, etc. trillions of years ago, so God would not know as a certainty what you would chose because your desires, needs, wants at that future point in history are not freely developed and are not a possible object of knowledge, even for an omniscient God.

I'm not sure we should speculate on God's abilities at this point in the conversation since I have no way to comprehend Him.

It would also be possible for you to have a sudden stroke or heart attack and die before you got to eat, changing the potential future.

I find this to be a little shallow to assume that the God who knows the inner workings of my soul would have a hard time knowing the physical condition of my heart or vascular systems.

It would be funny(and blasphemous) though.....Mel Brookish....God says, "Oh there goes another one! Wow, they're falling dead all over the place!".

I doubt He would be shocked by a sudden heart attack or stroke.

The future is not fixed like the past.

To which I agree. The future doesn't exist yet, but it will. Is God intelligent enough to know what it looks like (assuming He doesn't exist 'outside of time' to begin with)?

How have you been it's been awhile? :wave:
 
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