ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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godrulz

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What is it about godrulz statement that you don't understand?

It may be poorly worded. The point is that there is a difference between possible, actual/certain, necessary, contingent, probable. Our logical friend should recognize this as 'modal logic'.

God knows reality as it is. He can know possibilities as such until one possibility is actualized and becomes certain after the contingent choice.

Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical absurdity. God distinguishes past, present, and future, while AMR blurs the distinctions (as did Einstein and Augustine who were wrong on this point).
 

godrulz

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There is a steak in my freezer and steak sounds kind of good for dinner. I just bought some more BBQ briquettes. Yet going to Chipotle sounds intriguing as well. Fish tacos? :vomit:

I wonder what God can determine from this knowledge.

Based on perfect past and present knowledge, this proximal (near) vs remote (trillions of years ago) knowledge, is fairly predictable. Even I could predicte what you are likely to do, though your impulsive choices do not make it a certainty in advance. A friend may surprise you with pizza at the last moment and cause your plans to change (God would see the guy coming with the pizza and factor that in to His 'predictions').
 

godrulz

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I am squinting to find some meat behind GR's robo-response #17, that's all.

Since I have defended the principles in detail over the years, I am taking the liberty to state them to spur thinking as a relevant point. Defending the statement in detail every time I point it out is logistically impossible.
 

Evoken

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Exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical absurdity.

Not at all. Since God knows all causes fully, then it logically follows that he knows their respective contingent effects fully as well. He doesn't needs to wait for the effect to happen, he knows the effect in the cause itself and also knows each contingent effect fully as it is itself and any subsequent contingent effects it may produce.


Evo
 

godrulz

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Not at all. Since God knows all causes fully, then it logically follows that he knows their respective contingent effects fully as well. He doesn't needs to wait for the effect to happen, he knows the effect in the cause itself and also knows each contingent effect fully as it is itself and any subsequent contingent effects it may produce.


Evo

This sounds similar to Molinism (Catholic) and 'middle knowledge'.

One problem is that inanimate creation is under a law of cause and effect. Drop a rock and predict it will fall, unless supernaturally intervened upon. Turn a light switch on, and the room gets brighter (unless there is a problem).

Moral creation involves free moral agency and contingent choices that have an equal possibility of being actualized or not (may or may not happen vs will/will not). There is an element of uncertainty until the choice is made. I may usually eat chocolate ice cream, but I could not eat at all or chose vanilla out of character. The outcome is not known as a certainty from eternity past or the act is not truly free/contingent. This is a very technical discussion. Middle knowledge involves counterfactuals of freedom, etc., but fails to consider may vs may not, not just might vs might not or will vs will not.

Cause-effect is a different category than moral/mundane choices. The former is more predictable, while the latter has some uncertainty if truly contingent/free.

"The distinction between what is possible and what is actual is valid for God as well as us. The past is actual, the present is becoming, and the future is possible."

"If an act be free, it must be contingent. If contingent, it may or may not happen, or it may be one of many possibles. And if one of many possibles, it must be uncertain; and if uncertain, it must be unknowable."

"A certain event will inevitably come to pass. A necessary event must come to pass, but a contingent event may or may not come to pass. Contingency is an equal possibility of being and of not being." (modal logic)

Either free will is not genuine or exhaustive foreknowedge is not possible. God's desire for reciprocal love relationships necessitates self-evident free will (in His image), but at the expense of EDF (exhaustive definite foreknowledge). This is a voluntary self-limitation of knowledge that could only be changed by creating a deterministic universe (omnicausal control vs omnicompetent control).

The nature of creation, not a deficiency in omniscience, is the issue. God knows all that is knowable: He knows the past and present exhaustively, and knows the future correctly as possible or probable until it is actualized by the contingent choice.
 

godrulz

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Clark Pinnock: "Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not yet wholly known, even to God. It does not mean that God is ignorant of something He ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, He knows them correctly as possible and not actual."

This is the type of creation God sovereignly actualized. The alternative would be EDF, but at the expense of love, freedom, relationship. Being omnicompetent, a lack of EDF is no handicap to His sovereign rule (providential, responsive, not meticulous control).
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Since I have defended the principles in detail over the years, I am taking the liberty to state them to spur thinking as a relevant point. Defending the statement in detail every time I point it out is logistically impossible.
Just add a link to your "in detail" responses so we can all be informed.
 

godrulz

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Just add a link to your "in detail" responses so we can all be informed.

Just read my 18,000 posts. I doubt I can find all the posts without spending hours. Better yet, reread your Open Theism books by Sanders, Boyd, Hasker, etc. They build a cogent case for my statements.

Read my above quotes for principles about contingencies, uncertainties, etc. You, a man of logic, should be able to apply modal logic (and its confusing symbols) to the problem at hand. Your solution is compatibilism. Sorry, I do not buy it because it makes self-evident freedom illusory and forces me to ignore the two motifs in Scripture (settles some vs all of the future) compromising a 'face value' hermeneutic.
 

Servo

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Based on perfect past and present knowledge, this proximal (near) vs remote (trillions of years ago) knowledge, is fairly predictable. Even I could predicte what you are likely to do, though your impulsive choices do not make it a certainty in advance. A friend may surprise you with pizza at the last moment and cause your plans to change (God would see the guy coming with the pizza and factor that in to His 'predictions').


Funny. I did end up having pizza tonight. And my plans did change!
But even I knew there was a DiGiorno's in the freezer. I hope I didn't confuse God.
 

Evoken

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This sounds similar to Molinism (Catholic) and 'middle knowledge'.

Molinism, besides the two distinctions of the divine knowledge scientia simplicis intelligentiae (God's knowledge of possible things) and scientia visionis (God's knowledge of actual things), introduces a third distinction, scientia media (God's knowledge of things that are more than merely possible but less than actual). What I said in my previous post is not exclusive to Molinism nor is it scientia media, as it does not really touches on it.

While both Molinism and Thomism are legitimate within Catholicism, I personally hold to the Thomistic position and am not convinced about the third distinction. The Molinists idea of scientia media seems to introduce a certain passivity within God's knowledge that is inconsistent with his pure actuality, it makes God's knowledge dependent upon something other than himself (creation) and it also seems to weaken God's independence and sovereignty.


One problem is that inanimate creation is under a law of cause and effect. Drop a rock and predict it will fall, unless supernaturally intervened upon. Turn a light switch on, and the room gets brighter (unless there is a problem).

Moral creation involves free moral agency and contingent choices that have an equal possibility of being actualized or not (may or may not happen vs will/will not). There is an element of uncertainty until the choice is made.

First, while there is indeed a distinction between free moral agency and the manner on which inanimate matter acts, free moral agency is not absolutely independent of the influence of anything external, such as inanimate things that operate under the law of cause and effect, nor is it independent of our own internal dispositions. All our choices are responses to external and internal stimuli. They do not occur in a vacuum. So, from this it follows that it is not true that all possible choices have an equal possibility of being actualized or not. Some choices have a higher degree of being actualized than others, all depending on the situation we find ourselves in and our own internal disposition, which wether we realize it or not, is inclined to a given choice more than to another.

Second, the element of uncertainty when it comes to free moral agency rests on a lack of knowledge on the part of the person that is making the choice or the person observing someone else making it. This uncertainty we also see when we study inanimate things in science, things that appear random but that really are not (since they are subject to the law of cause and effect), appear to us as random simply because we lack a complete knowledge of all the factors involved.

This lack of knowledge when it comes to humans or inanimate things is not in God, for as I said in my previous post, he knows fully all causes and their respective effects, and that includes human beings as well. Humans being the cause of their choices, having in them all the elements that dispose them towards this or that choice, are known by God exhaustively and infallibly. God knows all our thoughts, feelings, desires, etc in such a complete and certain manner that it is safe to say that God knows us better than we know ourselves. So, no knowledge lacking in God of both ourselves and the inanimate things that surround us, it follows that God knows with absolute certainty any choice we will make in any given situation.


The outcome is not known as a certainty from eternity past or the act is not truly free/contingent.

This is a separate issue. One thing is wether or not God knows all things, including the conditioned free choices of creatures in himself from eternity, and another is wether or not the fact that God does knows them, invalidates the free agency of creatures.


"The distinction between what is possible and what is actual is valid for God as well as us. The past is actual, the present is becoming, and the future is possible."

This is what the unsettled theist assert, but such a god can in no way be the first mover and creator of the universe, for if he is as subject to time as the creation, and experiences things by succession, then he also has discursive knowledge (knowing things one at a time, one after the other, like we do). That being the case, he falls victim to the same dilemma of infinite regress that an eternal universe falls into. Such a notion also entails that instead of being absolutely simple, such a god is a composite, and that instead of being perfect, he is subject to improvement by learning things over time. This idea of god effectively invalidates virtually all proofs for the existence of God. Not to mention, that is is alien to the Scriptures.


"If an act be free, it must be contingent. If contingent, it may or may not happen, or it may be one of many possibles. And if one of many possibles, it must be uncertain; and if uncertain, it must be unknowable."

Not necessarily, in fact, Lord Jesus gives an example of his infallible knowledge of the conditioned future free actions of creatures in Scripture:

"Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21)​
So, just because an event is one of many possibilities, it does not follows that it is uncertain or unknowable. It may be to us, as I said above, due to our lack of knowledge about all the factors involved, but the same does not holds true to God.


Either free will is not genuine or exhaustive foreknowedge is not possible. God's desire for reciprocal love relationships necessitates self-evident free will (in His image), but at the expense of EDF (exhaustive definite foreknowledge).

This involves a false dichotomy. Both free will and God's exhaustive foreknowledge are truths affirmed by Scripture, so the issue should not be that we pick one or the other, but rather, that we seek to understand how both work together.

As I said, this is a separate issue from God's knowledge, we could get into it if you want, but the focus of this post, and my previous post, is God's knowledge.


This is a voluntary self-limitation of knowledge that could only be changed by creating a deterministic universe (omnicausal control vs omnicompetent control).

So, are you saying here that God decided to create a world that he didn't know how it would turn out? Or are you saying that God simply chooses to not know the future (in this world), but that if he so wished, he could know the future (in this world)?


The nature of creation, not a deficiency in omniscience, is the issue. God knows all that is knowable: He knows the past and present exhaustively, and knows the future correctly as possible or probable until it is actualized by the contingent choice.

You are contradicting what you said above. You said that free will comes "at the expense of EDF" otherwise it is not genuine, so the issue for you is or at least entails a deficiency in God's omniscience. You are also placing human limitations on God, ignoring that between creator and creature there is a infinite difference in every conceivable sense.

Now, if as you say, God knows the past and present exhaustively, since there is no limitation in his knowledge of all the causes involved in everything at present and the respective effects they produce, then it follows that he knows exhaustively which of those effects will obtain given the present condition of the causes from which they emerge. There is no such thing as something taking God by surprise for that would entail that he does not knows the present nor the past exhaustively.

We, in our limited knowledge of the causes involved can know with a good degree of certainty what will happen in the future. How much more God, who knows all things exhaustively by knowing himself perfectly?


Evo
 

Servo

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God knows all our thoughts, feelings, desires, etc in such a complete and certain manner that it is safe to say that God knows us better than we know ourselves.

God knows everything there is to know.

What does that have to do with God pre-planning all of our decisions? Which then would make our thoughts no longer a "decision” and the word “will” would become moot.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Since I have defended the principles in detail over the years, I am taking the liberty to state them to spur thinking as a relevant point. Defending the statement in detail every time I point it out is logistically impossible.
So you are basically admitting what I have maintained all along--you merely make assertions.

Just add a link to your "in detail" responses so we can all be informed.

Just read my 18,000 posts. I doubt I can find all the posts without spending hours. Better yet, reread your Open Theism books by Sanders, Boyd, Hasker, etc. They build a cogent case for my statements.
Yes, I see. The godrulz algorithm goes something like this:

1. GR asserts, "to spur thinking".
2. Thinking is so spurred.
3. In response to said spurred thinking, wherein GR has then been asked to support his "spurs", the response is
A. Go on an Easter-egg hunt through GR's 18,000 streams of consciousness.
- or -
B. Go read some books, because they'll backup godrulz's "spurs".
Now are you really spurring thinking or just creating chaos? Stirring the pot? Being provocative?

The search function should help you narrow down what you have written, especially when you are looking for "principles in detail" and not your usual 2-4 sentence provocations. After all, you must know your own words for which to search. Therefore, finding the one nugget in your 18,000 droppings containing your "principles in detail" defense of the topic you are "spurring thinking" about should be rather quick, no?

Why not provide the link and share your knowledge? Why do you hide your gifts under a basket? I am anxious to read your "detailed defense of the principles" of this topic. Where is it? Just point me to it. Where is it?
 

godrulz

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Why the bully mode, lately? If you do not like any poster's M.O. or lack of desire to engage your thick head constantly, just ignore them. Ad hominem attacks are not necessary. If you are not in the mood to answer every waste-of-time poster, I would not expect you to be bugged to do so. It is a free country with freedom of speech.

We should desire insight, not 'winning' the argument. I have done my homework for years, as you have. I do not expect you to pour your brain into me daily, nor would I want that. We all have to formulate our positions beyond a few myopic posters. If I have done my investigation, I do not expect everyone to demand that I prove all of my points to them.

You have rejected basic principles and dismissed Open Theism. There comes a point where it is not helpful to try to please you.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Why the bully mode, lately? If you do not like any poster's M.O. or lack of desire to engage your thick head constantly, just ignore them. Ad hominem attacks are not necessary. If you are not in the mood to answer every waste-of-time poster, I would not expect you to be bugged to do so. It is a free country with freedom of speech.

We should desire insight, not 'winning' the argument. I have done my homework for years, as you have. I do not expect you to pour your brain into me daily, nor would I want that. We all have to formulate our positions beyond a few myopic posters. If I have done my investigation, I do not expect everyone to demand that I prove all of my points to them.

You have rejected basic principles and dismissed Open Theism. There comes a point where it is not helpful to try to please you.
My point is clear. If, as you say, you have defended your frequently posted assertions elsewhere, then point others to these defenses so that they may become informed, wiser, whatever. No one is asking you to repeat the words, merely provide a link to them. You make an assertion, you get called on it, then you become defensive. How does that work anyway? You expect something different? It is not bullying. I am exhorting you to follow the admonishment to be ready to give a defense for what you believe. You are the most egregious practitioner of posting mere assertions I have ever encountered.

If you were someone I considered unworthy of communicating with, I would ignore it. But I don't, so I won't. I am speaking to you out of love, not hate.

You have talent, yet you hide it behind assertions that belie authoritativeness. If you want to share your blessings, you would spend more time elaborating what you merely assert. I have no doubt we would all be more informed for your efforts. I see a different godrulz when the topic is Mormonism, JWs, or Christ's divinity. But elsewhere, you back off, posting briefly, implying much. Why is that?
 

godrulz

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Dealings with cultists are life and death. Dealings with mind-made-up Calvinists are not. One's time and energy is proportional to priority.
 

Spitfire

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I am squinting to find some meat behind GR's robo-response #17, that's all.
This came up in another thread a couple of months ago. I cited Matthew 26 as evidence of God's foreknowledge of even what others would do out of their own free will, and the answer I got was basically "God can know what someone is going to do, but that's not foreknowledge."

Okay.....
 
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